Imagine that you had a daughter who deeply loved the Lord and was the apple of your eye. After she left the nest she began attending a church where the pastor was a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He invited her and a select number from his church to a class that would be “like a seminary class.” Instead, it was designed to lead them away from historic Christianity.
That is Alisa Childer’s story. Yet God rescued Alisa and she wrote what I named my book of the year last Christmas. (Another Gospel). She has become a wonderful apologist with helpful podcasts. Later this week you may listen to an excellent interview of Alisa by Colin Hansen. (Link below) It will help you discern this Jezebel seduction, which we see in the church of Thyatira and is still with us, though like a chameleon, changes colors to fit the culture. In Hansen’s interview of Childers, you’ll gain discernment for yourself and for the next generation. You will also see how, with the rise of the internet, more and more wolves in sheep’s clothing have been given a voice, authors like Jan Hatmaker and Rachel Held Evans. As John wrote in his letter, which is becoming clearer to me in realizing Revelation is for now, “Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come.” (1 John 2:18) https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/podcasts/gospelbound/why-progressive-christianity-cant-bring-reformation/
Alisa’s godly parents must have been so thankful to the Christ of the blazing eyes and the bronzed trampling feet who came to rescue Alysa from this wolf. Read the following short article by Alysa Childers pointing out 5 red flags of “progressive” Christianity.
This church in Thyatira was being poisoned by false teaching. And because the 7 churches are us, it is still happening. Progressive Christianity (progressing “beyond” the truths of the blood, the cross, and the gospel) has crept right into many evangelical churches that claim to be Christian.
Satan is not just a wolf, but a seductress. Jesus, in Revelation 2:20, alludes to Jezebel, the seductress of the Old Testament who led many astray and had prophets of God killed.
There is an element of seduction in false teaching, which Christ equates with spiritual adultery. Not giving allegiance to the idols of the day can be costly in income, power, and popularity. How often I have seen young people seduced because they don’t want to stop living with their significant other, or they want to be free to engage in a same-sex relationship, or they fear being looked down upon by their friends. They are being told, you can still be a Christian, yet not have to pay the cost of holy living. Bonhoeffer called this “cheap grace.”
Homework Word Document: # 6Thyatira’s Poison
On Tuesday, many of you will want to watch the following 5 minute video of our own Rebecca by clicking below and scrolling to the bottom of the page:
https://deebrestin.com/idol-lies/
Sunday: Getting Started
- What stands out to you from the above and why?
- In the short article by Alisa Childers, what are some signs of Progressive Christianity?
Monday: Eyes Like Blazing Fire, Feet Like Burnished Bronze
3. Read Revelation 2:18-29 aloud.
A. To whom is the letter addressed? (Rev. 2:18)
B. How is Jesus described? What might this be especially relevant to Thyatira?
(This is an allusion to the vision Daniel had in Daniel 10:6)
C. For what are they commended?
D. For what are they rebuked?
E. How are they to respond to this rebuke?
F. Find both the warning and the promises.
4. Read the first two paragraphs in Mystery Explained under The Church at Thyatira and share what stands out to you. (In the kindle, stop when you get to “Yet the church at Thyatira, like the church at Pergamum…”
We must remember the power of prayer for our loved ones. When Satan tries to seduce them and twist the truth, we have a Christ who sees, who comes running to trample liars with bronzed feet. I have seen God do that for my children, and I often think of the Living Bible Translation of Psalm 116: Because he bends down and listens, I will pray as long as I breathe!”
5. Briefly share a way God has answered prayer for ones you love to encourage us all.
Tuesday: Jezebel
Jezebel led people astray through seduction. The Old Testament prophets often compared idol worship to spiritual adultery. I know, for me, understanding that sin wasn’t just breaking a rule but breaking a heart was convicting. It was also a helpful picture because I realized that what I needed to do was to turn from my false lover (food, or the praise of man, or whatever) and run instead to God, trusting Him to meet my need. Our own Rebecca gave such a wonderful testimony to this — which many of you have seen, but many have not. If you haven’t seen it click on the link in the introduction and share your thoughts.
6. Comments on Rebecca’s insight into overcoming spiritual adultery.
7. Read again Revelation 2:20-23. In Mystery Explained, read the next 4 paragraphs beginning with “Yet the Church at Thyatira” (stop at “If the warnings…” in kindle) and answer:
A. Why might alignment with Christ cause loss to business owners in Thyatira? How might it cost us today?
B. How will Christ judge Jezebel and her followers?
C. Closely connected with Jezebel is the counterfeit church (Babylon) and the counterfeit Holy Spirit (the false prophet). Dr. Campbell says these pictures are meant to shock Christians and prevent them from compromising. How do they impact you?
D. Share anything else that stands out to you from these 4 paragraphs.
Wednesday: Warnings and Encouragements
8. Finish Dr. Campbell’s section under The Church at Thyatira and share anything that stands out to you.
9. The promise of being given “The Morning Star” to those who persevere is a reference to Christ Himself, the “bright and morning star.” (Revelation 22:16) He guides us through the darkness to our home with Him. Praise Him here.
Thursday/Friday: Colin Hansen Interview with Alisa Childers
10. Share what you learned that you want to remember! Also, any comments.
Saturday:
11. What is your take-a-way this week and why?
117 comments
1. What stands out to you from the above and why?
Satan is not only a wolf, but also a seductress. The enemy can make things look “good” – tempting, not so bad. It also made me think of other tactics of wolves in sheep clothing. Many years ago, someone in my life always discounted anything I shared with her about my faith. For example, once I shared what I believed was a pretty amazing answer to prayer, and her response was “Oh, okay, if you really want to believe that, but….” Another time, I witnessed the baptism of someone we both knew and she tried to poke holes in that. I knew what I saw and heard, yet she tried to discount the person’s testimony. So it can also be an attempt to undermine another’s faith, or to make them doubtful.
2. In the short article by Alisa Childers, what are some signs of Progressive Christianity?
1. A “lowered view” of God’s Word: this is an alteration in regards to the authority of God’s Word in our lives. A progressive Christian might say things like “The Bible is a human book”, or “I disagree with the apostle Paul on that issue.” There is a subtle difference in saying that the Bible “contains” the Word of God versus the Bible “is” the Word of God.
2. There is an emphasis on feelings over facts: what a person feels to be true becomes the ultimate authority. Examples are saying, “That Bible verse doesn’t resonate with me”, or “I just can’t believe Jesus would send good people to hell.”
3. Essential Christian doctrines are open for reinterpretation: All Christian tradition, dogma, and doctrine may be reinterpreted because it all passes through “flawed humanity”. There is an openness to re-defining and reinterpreting issues such as homosexuality, abortion, and even doctrines like the virgin birth and the resurrection.
4. Historic terms are re-defined: The Bible being divinely inspired, for example, may mean something entirely different to a progressive Christian than what the church has held to since the beginning. The word “love”, or that God is love, for example, can be re-defined to mean that God loves everyone and would never punish sinners.
5. The heart of the gospel shifts from sin and redemption to social justice: The core message of the gospel remains the same – that Jesus died for our sins, was buried and resurrected, and reconciled us to God, but progressives will replace that message with what they see as a higher good: social justice and good works. This is not to minimize God’s commands to care for the poor and the oppressed.
Here is an interesting article I found (The Gospel Coalition) about Progressive Christianity:‘Progressive’ Christianity: Even Shallower Than the Evangelical Faith I Left (thegospelcoalition.org)
Good illustrations, Susan — and thanks for the link.
Thank you for this link, Susan. It looks like an excellent article!!!
Sunday
1. What stands out to you from the above and why?
I’m a visual person and the picture of the wolf in sheep’s clothing is quite powerful…would love to have that in a framed picture with the verse of Matthew 7:15 on it.
I have found that the poison isn’t always from the pulpit, but from well respected lay people and to whom people within the church give more credence to than the Bible. That is really dangerous as a following can easily start from this.
Also music from churches that are teaching heresies…please beware!
2. In the short article by Alisa Childers, what are some signs of Progressive Christianity?
What I find interesting about progressive Christianity is how subtle it is. She says in the article “it is difficult to pin down what actually qualifies someone as a progressive Christian.” One sign that I have seen in the “lay people” I described above is, “There is a lowered view of the Bible.” I have heard comments like “I bet God is sorry He put that in the Bible” in disagreement to what Paul said about the Lords supper. Essential Christian doctrines open for reinterpretation…”I can’t believe Jesus would send good people to hell.” Oh, and the feelings being emphasized over facts is so scary to me with the comment, “that Bible verse doesn’t resonate with me.” Historical terms redefined …How many times have I heard.”it’s not our job to talk to anyone about sin – it’s our job to just love them…”. I’ve also been told, “ God is love so let’s not go back to the Old Testament where He is so violent and judgmental.” Number 5, the gospel shifts from sin and redemption to social justice is a big one today with many churches teaching CRT.
That is true about lay people. As John’s 1st letter says, they come from right within our ranks — but eventually leave, for not really with us.
Monday
3. Read Revelation 2:18-29 aloud. I have just read silently but will read aloud when I’m alone.
A. To whom is the letter addressed? (Rev. 2:18) The angel of Thyatira
B. How is Jesus described? Eyes like flames of fire and feet are like polished bronze. What might this be especially relevant to Thyatira? (This is an allusion to the vision Daniel had in Daniel 10:6). These seem to symbolize judgement, purity and steadfastness and they will experience all three. Not real sure.
C. For what are they commended? Their love, faith, patient endurance and constant improvement in all these.
D. For what are they rebuked? Permitting that woman-that Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet -to lead my servants astray. Teaching them to commit sexual sin and to eat food offered to idols. She doesn’t want to repent from her immorality and she been given time.
E. How are they to respond to this rebuke? Repent and turn away from her evil deeds.
F. Find both the warning and the promises. Warnings: She’ll be thrown on a bed of suffering and those who commit adultery with her will suffer greatly. Her children will be struck dead. All churches will know that He is the One who searches out the thoughts and intentions of every person. Each person will be given what they deserve. Promises: Those who haven’t followed the false teaching He will ask nothing more except they hold tightly to what they have until He comes. Those that are victorious, obey Him to the very end He will give authority over all the nations. They’ll rule the nations with an iron rod and smash them like clay pots. They will have the same authority He received from His Father and they’ll be given the morning star.
I think the eyes of fire are judgment eyes to the poison, and the bronze feet the fact that we can trust Him not to crumble. (Not my own thoughts — John Stott and Campbell in one of his commentaries)
I also thought of the bronze (He will not crumble) being in contrast to “rule the nations…and smashing them like clay pots.” His kingdom is steadfast!
1. What stands out to you from the above and why?
I read Alisa Chambers’ “Another Gospel” recently and wow! I now consider it necessary reading for every Christian. She hits the nail on the head about some changes in our churches which are leading into false doctrines and dangerously leading many away from the true gospel. I was forced to read and reread some sections of her book to really “get” what she was saying; but we need to even attend church with our eyes and ears open because this false gospel is infiltrating even strongly evangelical churches. A friend of mine who attends what used to be a strong evangelical church is now hearing things that concern even her theologically trained husband – phrases like “God has changed his mind”, for example. I believe Christ’s church is not only under attack from “without” but from “within”. Beware!!!
Love that you loved Another Gospel, Diane.
I just realized that I called the author of “Another Gospel” Alisa Chambers instead of Alisa Childers. Sorry about that. It is too late to change in here, but I didn’t want anyone to assume her last name is Chambers. I so strongly recommend her book!
Diane, I love “Another Gospel” too! All of that is happening in our part of the country. We need to pray, be discerning and strong in the Word. I agree that Christ’s church is under attack from “within”! Our pastor is so aware of this and I am so thankful for strong leadership!!
Sunday: Getting Started
1.What stands out to you from the above and why?
…this Jezebel seduction, which we see in the church of Thyatira and is still with us, though like a chameleon, changes colors to fit the culture.
There is an element of seduction in false teaching, which Christ equates with spiritual adultery.
Bonhoeffer called this “cheap grace.”
I am so glad to be a part of this blog. I have been hearing about progressive Christianity for a while now but have not read a lot about it. I have laughed at Jen Hatmaker’s jokes and admired Rachel Hollis way with words in the past when I have come across their writings. However, I have not been drawn much to them. There are some things about them that speak too much of self-effort? Or to what people want to hear? I shudder at the thought of many well-meaning people caught in falsehood. I checked their FB followings and saw a number of people I know personally who have given glowing remarks about their books. Also, many famous celebrities are endorsing them and their philosophies.
2 Timothy 4:3, NIV: “For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.”
And even as I say these things, I am asking God to direct my prayers for these women as well as for myself. I pray for me to have a discerning spirit especially as a pastor’s wife and as a Bible Study leader. I do not want to mislead others.
The phrase “cheap grace” brought tears to my eyes. Grace cost Jesus His very life. The gift of eternal life is the cross. Philippians 2
2.In the short article by Alisa Childers, what are some signs of Progressive Christianity?
a. There is a lowered view of the Bible
This is probably the most bothersome for me about progressive Christianity. When the Bible no longer holds authority in our lives, we are going down the slippery road to destruction.
b. Feelings are emphasized over facts
c. Essential Christian doctrines are open for re-interpretation
d. Historic terms are re-defined
e. The heart of the gospel message shifts from sin and redemption to social justice.
I feel like social justice is now the rallying cry among the younger generation. Social justice is good but it should not be the end in itself. Jesus is the answer to all social injustices.
I am thankful for people like you, Dee, and for Alisa Childers who have been given the gift to articulate the truth.
Thanks, Bing. In the interview with Childers later in the week they talk about how false women teachers have proliferated because of the internet and name names.
You are always so perceptive, Bing. I am not very familiar with Jan Hatmaker, but just reading about her on Facebook and Googled her….it left me very uncomfortable. I did not feel that there was anything to draw me toward Jesus in any of her posts. I am not judging her motives, but all glory goes only to God through His Son Jesus.
1. What stands out to you from the above and why?
The picture of the wolf “overdressed” with the lambskin speaks volumes to me. How will I know? The term “spiritual adultery” also makes me pause. Am I committing any of this in my life?
2. In the short article by Alisa Childers, what are some signs of Progressive Christianity?
1. The diminished Bible
2. Feelings over facts
3. Reinterpretation of essential Christian documents
4. Redefined historic terms
5. The heart of the Gospel (sin and redemption) moves to social justice
Great concise points!
3. Read Revelation 2:18-29 aloud.
A. To whom is the letter addressed? (Rev. 2:18)
The letter is addressed to the angel of the church of Thyatira.
B. How is Jesus described? What might this be especially relevant to Thyatira?
(This is an allusion to the vision Daniel had in Daniel 10:6)
Jesus is described as the One with flames in His eyes and polished bronze feet.
The Amplified Bible says that Thyatira was the place where the indigo dye was made and where Lydia (seller of the purple fabric used by many) lived. Could this be a reference to the immoral, sexual lives the people were living? Jesus sees what they are doing (Jezabel) but I’m not sure if this is what you are looking for in the “why” part of the question.
Also, the polished bronze feet? Are these feet going to bestow wrath on these people? Are the flaming eyes and bronze feet the righteous justice that will ensue?
C. For what are they commended?
The people of Thyatira are commended for their love, faith, service, and patient endurance.
D. For what are they rebuked?
They are rebuked for their being led astray by “that Jezabel;” her sexual immorality and eating food not allowed.
E. How are they to respond to this rebuke?
They are to repent and stop the evil.
F. Find both the warning and the promises.
Their children will be struck dead. Each will be given what they deserve.
To those who did not participate in the evil, He says to hold tightly to what they have until He comes. Then they will receive authority over all the nations. They will have the same authority given to Him by the Father.
I answered this in your earlier query above Laura — yes, I do think the flaming eyes and bronze feet speak of His true and holy judgment. Fire is often associated with holiness — and the feet reminds me of the line from the Battle Hymn — He is trampling out His justice where the grapes of wrath are stored…’
Interesting!
1. What stood out in the introduction and why?
The line that Bonhoeffer called ‘cheap grace’: you can be a Christian, yet not have to pay the cost of holy living. Years ago I heard a sermon on Psalm 23, where the pastor said that when we first come to Jesus we often are led in green pastures beside quiet waters. It is very peaceful and beautiful and we very much want to stay there. But then He leads us in paths of righteousness for His name’s sake. It is like He says to us, now that you have rested, it is time for you to learn what it means to have My name. And if you are going to have My name, then you need to walk in righteousness. These aren’t paths we want to take, but if we are serious about having Jesus, then we must.
2. Signs of progressive Christianity. These have been well covered by others, so no need to repeat.
I love that contrast the pastor pointed out, Mary.
Mary-if we are serious about having Jesus, then we must…walk in righteousness. Love that. No turning back, we have Jesus seeing us through what lies ahead.
Love this insight from your pastor, Mary; “when we first come to Jesus we often are led in green pastures beside quiet waters. It is very peaceful and beautiful and we very much want to stay there. But then He leads us in paths of righteousness for His name’s sake. It is like He says to us, now that you have rested, it is time for you to learn what it means to have My name. And if you are going to have My name, then you need to walk in righteousness. These aren’t paths we want to take, but if we are serious about having Jesus, then we must. “
1.What stands out to you from the above and why? Satan can make himself so attractive; He uses and twists love into a warped version of tolerance. He plays to the ego, to one’s pride.
The Bible is God’s Word; it is Truth. I have heard people say “The Bible means different things to different generations”. This can be twisted into a new morality. People fear rejection if they don’t buy into the new morality that is painted as beautiful, true and good. Satan can gently nudge a naive person into believing many of his lies. The internet and “popular culture” portray a new version of Christianity where young minds can be easily drawn in. Dee, those are perfect words to describe Satan: “though like a chameleon, changes colors to fit the culture”.
“2. I love Alisa Childers book and her wisdom. In Progressive churches, personal experiences, feelings and opinions tend to be valued as objective truth. This is another area where so many can get snared into the den of the devil. There are so many gray, yet inviting areas that are attractive to young people…or those who do not know the true Word of God. I really feel that all of Alisa’s point are so valid and true! A. Lower view of Bible B. Feelings over facts C. Essential doctrines open for re-interpretation D. Historic terms re-defined E. The heart of the gospel message shifts from sin and redemption to social justice. I find all of these things so frightening and they are so prevalent right now.
I am so thankful to be part of this blog!
We are so thankful to have you Patti!
Monday: Eyes Like Blazing Fire, Feet Like Burnished Bronze
3. Read Revelation 2:18-29 aloud.
A. To whom is the letter addressed? (Rev. 2:18)
To the angel of the church of Thyatira
B. How is Jesus described? What might this be especially relevant to Thyatira?
The son of God with eyes like blazing fire and feet like burning bronze.
(This is an allusion to the vision Daniel had in Daniel 10:6)
C. For what are they commended?
for their deeds, love and faith, service and perseverance, and that they are now doing more than they did at first.
D. For what are they rebuked?
They tolerate Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet who is misleading people into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.
E. How are they to respond to this rebuke?
To repent
F. Find both the warning and the promises.
Warning: So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead.
Promise: I will not impose any other burden on you, except to hold on to what you have until I come. To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nation and the morning star which is Jesus.
1.Read the first two paragraphs in Mystery Explained under The Church at Thyatira and share what stands out to you. (In the kindle, stop when you get to “Yet the church at Thyatira, like the church at Pergamum…”
Thyatira religious life features worship of 2 gods said to be sons of Zeus. This might explain why Jesus introduces Himself as the Son of God.
We must remember the power of prayer for our loved ones. When Satan tries to seduce them and twist the truth, we have a Christ who sees, who comes running to trample liars with bronzed feet. I have seen God do that for my children, and I often think of the Living Bible Translation of Psalm 116: Because he bends down and listens, I will pray as long as I breathe!”
5. Briefly share a way God has answered prayer for ones you love to encourage us all.
Our daughter Ruth lives and works in Seattle, WA. We have longed for her to live closer to us and the pandemic just made the desire more acute for us. Almost a year ago, she told us she would like to move back to the Midwest! Happy dance for this Mom!
Please pray for a safe 5-day drive for her. She is driving in a little car with all of her belongings and leaving Seattle on June 27. She hopes to be in MO on July 1st.
Pray for us also, as even as we talk here about progressive Christianity, I am beginning to see that Ruth is heading towards it and may even be a believer of this by now.
Bing, I will pray for Ruth to have safe travels. I will also pray that the Lord will speak to her heart and that she will be open and receptive; that she will have the scales lifted from her eyes and see the hearts and intentions of those who deceive her. We are just across the lake from Seattle. The pressure everywhere here is immense for Christian young people….I meant it when I said that we often feel like we are in Pergamum. The pressure is especially strong in the school systems and in healthcare. So thankful that she is heading to the Midwest. I will pray for you as you talk together about progressive Christianity. They present it in such a way that it makes a person feel guilty if they don’t agree. I will be praying daily for you and for Ruth.
Patti and Laura, I thank you so much for lifting us up in prayers. This is one place that I feel safe sharing my deepest concerns. I have to constantly remember to cast my cares on Jesus instead of worrying.
Thank You Lord Jesus for bringing Ruth back to the Midwest! Thank You for taking her out of the pain of that area and back to the peace of her parents. You reign oh Lord!
Ruth is leaving Moab! (At least Patti tells me Seattle has become like Moab.)
Amen! Thank you, Lord. Our granddaughter, who moved here after college (from Montana) is also leaving to move somewhere more safe. She loved Seattle so much, but she has seen the great change happening and does not feel as safe as she once did. (Yes, it has become like Moab). So many people that I know, many not Christians, feel that a darkness has come over this part of the country. It is interesting that even those who do not profess to be Christians, can see that the light here has dimmed. The Christians in this area are becoming stronger or leaving the churches altogether. It is such a strange time. I am sure that it is happening everywhere, but Seattle and Portland seem to be in the heart of something creepy.
Oh, Dee! What an appropriate metaphor that you and Patti used here. “Moab”-that brings memories of the OT story of Ruth who left Moab. I am praying that as our Ruth comes back, that she would experience Christian love like no other (through us and so many others who have prayed for her through the years) and she would fully leave Moab and be reunited to Jesus.
I will pray that for Ruth! I am praying that for my granddaughter, who is on her way over. How I pray for all my children and grandchildren to be united with Jesus. I love that song you shared, Bing. Yes, Satan is trying to destroy marriages and families. Prayer matters. Praise God that you and your husband are together, Chris. Going through loss of a child is devastating. What a sweet moment to find that prayer in your Bible. So thankful that to our God, nothing is impossible.
Bing, I am joining with the prayers of others here for your Ruth. May God draw her back to himself. If you have not read Alisa Childers’ book, you really should. It will open your eyes to how Satan is attacking the church from within!
Oh yes, prayers for Ruth as she travels and for her spiritual needs. Prayers will be heard and answered in God’s timing.
I love your answer to prayer Bing! How wonderful! I will pray right now for Ruth and for you and your husband.
SO thankful for this Bing! I’ve been praying and will continue to pray for your relationship and His work in her life.
Sunday: Getting Started
What stands out to you from the above and why?
In the short article by Alisa Childers, what are some signs of Progressive Christianity?
What has stuck with me most
Monday: Eyes Like Blazing Fire, Feet Like Burnished Bronze
3. Read Revelation 2:18-29 aloud.
To whom is the letter addressed? (Rev. 2:18)
To the angel of the church at Thyatira
B. How is Jesus described? As having eyes of fire and feet of burnished bronze
What might this be especially relevant to Thyatira? I am fishing here but because of their lack of purity?
(This is an allusion to the vision Daniel had in Daniel 10:6)
C. For what are they commended? For their works, love, faith, service and patient endurance
D. For what are they rebuked? That they tolerate a woman in their midst who is leading others astray
E. How are they to respond to this rebuke? Those who have followed her must repent, those who have not must hold fast what they have.
F. Find both the warning and the promises. Warning Illness, death Promise authority, ruling with Christ, the morning star
5. Briefly share a way God has answered prayer for ones you love to encourage us all.
Many years ago I had a prayer in my bible that I prayed daily, for a long time, for my marriage, we were really struggling during the time I faithfully made that prayer a part of my day. I was going through bookshelves and found the Bible I used at the time and came across that dog-eared prayer. It made me cry, how much of what I prayed in that season had seemed impossible. Finding the prayer again and reflecting on it , God had answered so much of what I hadn’t really dared hope for. I am grateful to remember this this morning.
Thanks for sharing that Chris. Prayer matters. And you and your husband have also stayed married after terrible death of a child — that’s rare, as I’m sure you know — all glory to God.
Chris, I am thankful for your answered prayers. Our marriages are under attack every day and am thankful that He is holding us fast in His loving hands. You are very dear to me.
Here is a song by Selah that has ministered to me so many times. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OOphIgGkjM
He will hold me fast
When I fear my faith will fail, Christ will hold me fastWhen the tempter would prevail, He will hold me fastI could never keep my hold through life’s fearful pathFor my love is often cold; He must hold me fast
He will hold me fast, He will hold me fastFor my Savior loves me so, He will hold me fast
Those He saves are His delight, Christ will hold me fastPrecious in His holy sight, He will hold me fastHe’ll not let my soul be lost; His promises shall lastBought by Him at such a cost, He will hold me fast
He will hold me fast, He will hold me fastFor my Savior loves me so, He will hold me fast
For my life He bled and died, Christ will hold me fastJustice has been satisfied; He will hold me fastRaised with Him to endless life, He will hold me fast’Til our faith is turned to sight, When He comes at last!
He will hold me fast, He will hold me fastFor my Savior loves me so, He will hold me fast
He will hold me fast, He will hold me fastFor my Savior loves me soFor my Savior loves me soHe will hold me fast
Thank You Dee ❤️We still have our struggles, but I am aware and abundantly grateful for the ways God has lead and upheld us.
Bing, I love that you love that song too, I believe that I shared it here on the blog too, during the beginning of the lament study. It is a favorite of mine. I heard it first at the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation conferences, it makes me weep.
4. Read the first two paragraphs in Mystery Explained under The Church at Thyatira and share what stands out to you. (In the kindle, stop when you get to “Yet the church at Thyatira, like the church at Pergamum…”
Christ presents himself as the “Son of God.” Presumably, this is because the Thyatirans have two gods they worship, of Zeus.
They are commended for their faith and endurance even under persecution.
5. Briefly share a way God has answered prayer for ones you love to encourage us all.
Almost 10 years ago, my daughter who had been struggling emotionally as a result of emotional abuse, left her husband who gave up on the marriage. She and her husband fought over custody of her three boys and ended up sharing custody, but he had primary care of them because she had no physical place to house 3 boys. She was in a hard place emotionally, trying to keep relationship with her boys, in spite of their reluctant father. She has been through a lot and we, as parents, have been through a lot with her and working to support her and her boys. However, God kept working and today she is remarried and happy and still walking with God. It is so hard to watch your children struggle. Keep praying. God is listening to your earnest prayers.
Diane, thank you for your prayers and you sharing about your daughter. No, I have not read Alisa’s book but it is on my list next to buy. I like her non-judgmental approach to those who disagree with her. I can feel her staunch stand for the real gospel and I pray there would be many more of her like to counter the poison that others are propagating within the church. Pray with me as a pastor’s wife that we will not hesitate to stand for the truth in our sphere of influence.
5. Briefly share a way God has answered prayer for ones you love to encourage us all.
Well, many of you know our struggle with our daughter over the past 5-10 years. We are raising our grandkids because she is just not capable. We have prayed and had MANY others pray too. In December she came for Christmas and has not left. We gave her a month to find a job and she found one in a week (has changed 3 times since, but always working), she is paying a small amount of money for rent, and used her stimulus money to enroll in a community college course to earn a license to be a vet tech. We won’t be around forever for the babies It is not a perfect arrangement but it is good. God has answered many prayers. I just would like her to know Him again. That is the current prayer. Thank you for your prayers also.
Oh, Laura, I had not heard that your daughter has moved home with you and is working. That’s good. Continued prayers going up for you, your daughter and the “babies”. Praying with you that she will come back to God. Hugs!
Laura, what an answer to prayer! Sounds like our girls are coming home to us and we will be praying that they will come home to Jesus as well. I had 2 students stay on for year 2 for vet assistant in my program just for exposure and I have learned so much about animals from them! Praying for our girls!
What a wonderful answer to prayer, Laura. Life is not easy for any of us or our children. I will pray that she will open her heart to Jesus again. We are thankful He is always waiting with open arms. When I wake up at night, which is often, I am thanking God for all of you and praying that He will have His hand on our families, calling each of them closer to Him. Hugs and blessings to you for loving your daughter and grandchildren so well and so unconditionally. Being a vet tech is a job of compassion.
Laura, I had missed that Sarah was with you. Hard but good! You are amazing.
Oh Laura, this answer to prayer gives me “goosebumps”! I am so glad that she is in your life and working on a goal. My daughter has adopted her granddaughter. Prayers for her son to find hope in Jesus.
I am so grateful to read this Laura, I will be praying that the progression in this positive direction continues and that she reaffirms her faith. Also that your steadfast love for her and her children will be a light to your sons.
oh Laura. Your faithfulness blows me away. So thankful for how He has answered and is working in Sarah.
What stands out to me is this picture, the wolf in sheep’s clothing. How so many are being affected by this problem in churches. Alisa’s own story shows the danger so clearly as she got involved in the Bible study for 4 months. She wanted to go deeper, yet the danger lurked. The 5 points in her article stand out to me:
the lowered view of the Bible, feelings emphasized over facts, essential Christian doctrines open for re-interpretation, historic terms redefined, such as the Bible is authoritative, and the heart of the gospel message shifts from sin and redemption to social justice.
I can see why many have drifted. We live in a world that is so self-centered and feel good about yourself instead of the truth that we are all sinners and sin daily.
We need a Savior. We need Jesus who is the way, the truth and the life.
Monday
4. Read the first two paragraphs in Mystery Explained under The Church at Thyatira and share what stands out to you. (In the kindle, stop when you get to “Yet the church at Thyatira, like the church at Pergamum…”
The fact that Christ presents Himself as the Son of God is explained by 2 gods in Thyatira are the sons of Zeus. I read that in Jewish thought to be the son of a thing meant you had the nature of that thing. Zeus was the Greek god of the sky and king of the gods. God is the only true God, holy, divine…
Faith and perseverance are connected to persecution elsewhere in Revelation.
6.) I love Rebecca’s video and her honesty with her Idol of comfort. I love “Intimacy with God is like a stream ~ I hate it when rocks get in the way.” How true! I have had rocks in the way so many times, and it sometimes takes me awhile to figure it out. I need to go to a quiet place, abide in God’s word and pray. Rebecca said it is “A new way of seeing God; our dependence is on HIM, not on others, not on food, not on comfort. God may not change the circumstances, but He can change our hearts and perspectives. ” Thank you Rebecca! You are amazing raising your four boys and having a husband that works long hours!
7.) Read again Revelation 2:20-23 and next four paragraphs in Mystery Explained.
A.) Alignment with Christ has cost many business owners their reputations and their businesses in our country. It is so sad to see this in a free country.
B.) How will Christ judge Jezebel and her followers. By throwing Jezebel onto a sick bed and those who commit adultery with her, into a deep tribulation.
C.) The pictures of the counterfeit church are still evident today ~ They are using the Word of God to profit and they are compromising their moral values, leading people astray. They will face judgment.
8.) Finish Dr. Campbell’s section under The Church at Thyatira and share any thoughts. God will not compromise or tolerate sin. We need to be abiding in the Word of God constantly and know Biblical truth. To be faith is all God requires in the end.
I love this: Any revelation undiscovered by any faithful believers over the last two thousand years is unlikely to accurate.
9.) How I praise Christ, our bright and morning star. He is present and waiting for us every moment! Thank you Lord, How I praise your name! Thank you for Rebecca’s beautiful testimony. Thank you for answered prayer for so many this week! Thank you for protection this week from snares we did not see ahead of time. Thank you for answered prayers for the children and grandchildren these precious ladies are praying for. Thank you for blessing our relationships with family! Thank you for being our Rock. We Praise You and we glorify Your Name.
So good to thank Him for snares we didn’t see ahead of time, Patti!
5. Answers to prayers. He is always answering prayers. Sometimes we notice and sometimes we don’t. The old saying is that He answers either yes, no, or wait. I love when He says yes to me, especially when it is a bigger prayer for something with eternal consequences. But He deserves my praise just as much for the little things I’ve basically forgotten about by the time He answers. Everything He does is out of grace, whether it is yes, no, or wait.
6. Oh, how I long for the penny to drop for me from knowing in my head about my idols and saying I value God more, to where it becomes what I live!!
Rebecca’s testimony is very encouraging to me. She prompted me to own up to my idols once again.
My false lovers are comfort and the approval of man. With retirement comes a desire to go down memory lane and list all my accomplishments. People have been kind in their compliments and I could ride on them for a few days. Then comes the empty feeling and questioning, “Is that all there is to it? To life?” Solomon was right. Life can be like chasing after the wind.
There are 2 thoughts that keep coming back to my mind: The enemy either says, “You should really be proud of yourself, you did it all by working hard and doing this and that. But he also says, “how about this and that?” You were really just manipulating the situation, riding on somebody’s coattails, etc., etc. Oh, how he can be so cunning.
Thankfully, the Spirit does not let me go down the enemy’s paths. He keeps grounding me to the truth and to the path of humility and to focus on Jesus who is able to make me do things well.
6. Comments on Rebecca’s insight into overcoming spiritual adultery.
She has satisfaction and comfort as her idols although she felt she has won half the battle to be able to identify her idols. But she was fearful-will God let me sit in my pain? Idolatry grieves God’s heart and realized how deep His love for her. So she chose to run to Him. It was not a quick fix. God was like a salve to her pain and she trusted Him with her pain. Her circumstances haven’t changed. But He has restored their intimacy. Thank you, Rebecca, for sharing your testimony.
7. Read again Revelation 2:20-23. In Mystery Explained, read the next 4 paragraphs beginning with “Yet the Church at Thyatira” (stop at “If the warnings…” in kindle) and answer:
A. Why might alignment with Christ cause loss to business owners in Thyatira? How might it cost us today?
Exclusion from the business organization means they do not have any backing or support for their businesses.
We can be labeled bigots, shunned for not going with the times, and lose income. I think of Colorado’s Jack Phillips who is being sued again for his refusal to bake a cake with a transgender theme. The enemy is persistent and crasser each time. And our country is like Pergamum and Thyatira in their support of what our leaders call inclusion and tolerance or kindness. Sometimes, my stomach churns when I read the news.
B. How will Christ judge Jezebel and her followers?
They will be cast in the bed of suffering (is this a metaphor of hell or eternal fire)
C. Closely connected with Jezebel is the counterfeit church (Babylon) and the counterfeit Holy Spirit (the false prophet). Dr. Campbell says these pictures are meant to shock Christians and prevent them from compromising. How do they impact you?
Porneia refers to all forms of moral, ethical, social, and financial compromise with the pagan culture.
I have to be careful when I say “go with the flow” in the classroom. Whereas I mean for the phrase to mean “cooperate with what is the right thing to do”, this phrase can easily be misunderstood. I do not want to go with the flow of compromise. Help me, Lord!
Oh Bing — I could identify: My false lovers are comfort and the approval of man. With retirement comes a desire to go down memory lane and list all my accomplishments. People have been kind in their compliments and I could ride on them for a few days. Then comes the empty feeling and questioning, “Is that all there is to it? To life?”
You are wise.
oh Bing–thank you for your honesty. That whole first paragraph is so full of truth, gold. “He keeps grounding me to the truth and to the path of humility and to focus on Jesus who is able to make me do things well.”
I had posted a Tuesday reply yesterday, it seems to have vanished somehow.
Wednesday: Warnings and Encouragements
8. Finish Dr. Campbell’s section under The Church at Thyatira and share anything that stands out to you.This stood out to me “Those who are oppressed will gain authority – those who suffer will rule”And that One day believers will share in Christ’d lordship over all creation- this gave a fresh depth to what it means to be ‘in Christ’
9. The promise of being given “The Morning Star” to those who persevere is a reference to Christ Himself, the “bright and morning star.” (Revelation 22:16) He guides us through the darkness to our home with Him. Praise Him here.Father thank you for the ultimate sort of unshakeable hope your word gives us. Thank you that you won’t break bruised reeds. Thank you for your Spirit that brings your truth alive in us, thank you for Dee, for these dear sisters and this safe place you have lead us all to.
I don’t know why it vanished, Chris — it’s not waiting to be approved. Sorry about that!
Chris-joining you in this praise “Thank you that you won’t break bruised reeds. ” And so thankful you are here with us.
Comments on Rebecca’s insight into overcoming spiritual adultery.
I always like watching this video of Rebecca! I love the sounds of the birds and the water. Rebecca is so genuine. I appreciate her sharing with us her struggle.
7. Read again Revelation 2:20-23. In Mystery Explained, read the next 4 paragraphs beginning with “Yet the Church at Thyatira” (stop at “If the warnings…” in kindle) and answer:
A. Why might alignment with Christ cause loss to business owners in Thyatira? How might it cost us today?
Compromising one’s faith for economic profit was/is committing “porneia” according to Campbell. It’s a moral compromise. The Christians of that day might have been involved with the Roman Empire activities to do business. Today we might use workers who are not “registered” with the government therefore we are working around the tax system, urging corners on products, or partnering with non believers to provide unethical/unreliable products. The businesses who have refused to provide a service to gays comes to mind here. They say it is against their beliefs and can’t possibly participate in the action.
B. How will Christ judge Jezebel and her followers?
He says He will cause her great suffering and includes anyone who commit this adultery with her. He says He will strike her children dead.
3. Read Revelation 2:18-29 aloud.
A. To whom is the letter addressed?
To the angel of the church in Thyatira.
B. How is Jesus described? Why might this be especially relevant to Thyatira?
Jesus identifies Himself as the Son of God, whose eyes are like flames of fire and feet like polished bronze. He is not vague here about His identity. Declaring Himself the Son of God means He has supreme authority, all knowledge, and the right to judge every man and woman. When humans see a vision of God in all His glory, they use words such as “like” (eyes “like”, or feet “like”) because our words fail to describe what he is seeing.
C. For what are they commended?
They are commended for their love, faith, patient endurance, and service, and how they are constantly improving in all these areas.
D. For what are they rebuked?
They are permitting a false prophet to lead some astray by teaching them to eat food offered to idols and to commit sexual sin.
E. How are they to respond to this rebuke?
Repent and turn away from “her” evil deeds. This false prophet is called “Jezebel” here.
F. Find both the warning and the promises.
Warning: Those who commit adultery with her will suffer greatly if they do not repent. Jesus says “I will strike her children dead.”
Promises: To those who have not followed false teachings, Jesus will ask nothing more of them than to hold tightly to what they have until He returns. He will give them authority over all the nations, to rule them and to be victorious over them. These faithful will have the same authority that Jesus received from His Father, and He will also give them the morning star.
4. Read the first two paragraphs in Mystery Explained under the Church at Thyatira and share what stands out to you.
It stands out that what is important to God for believers is especially our faith and perseverance. Campbell explained that Jesus uses his title as the Son of God because at this church, there was also the worship of two “sons” of Zeus.
5. Briefly share a way God has answered prayer for ones you love to encourage us all.
Many years ago, after the tragic death of my nephew, my dad was having scary experiences at night, believing that his grandson was coming to visit him. The experiences, though, grew more frequent and frightening. I asked dad to come over and meet with one of my pastors, who listened and who was familiar with occult experiences as he had traveled to other countries where those things occur a lot. And, I told dad frankly that I did not believe it was Thomas. I encouraged him to read the Bible I had bought him and mom, to start in John, and I pointed out a couple of helpful passages. My dad became a Christian. I believe he definitely had made an idol out of my nephew, his grandson, and this was a spiritual battle to see who he would turn to – God, or to cling to Thomas? I had met with a group of wonderful pray-ers at my friend’s church during this, and told them everything and we were all praying for my dad. I even went to my parents’ home one day, went up into his bedroom, and prayed in the room.
Susan, thank you for sharing about your Dad and his scary experiences. I do believe that those things happen. They are frequent occurrences in the Philippines and even among Christians there, including my relatives, deep superstitions are struggles to let go. I am glad that you gave your Dad and your Mom a Bible and pointed them to the truth. And praying in the room of your Dad was the right thing to do.
Thanks for the story of your dad. I can’t imagine how scared he must have been. You were right to ask the pastor to help. I love that you went and prayed in his room too. And, he became a Christian!
Susan, I really appreciate your sharing your dad’s experience with nightmares and it is so good that you led him to the Word, your pastor and prayed for him with a group of women, and even in his room. As a result, he became a Christian. God is good. I believe these sorts of things will become more and more common here as the Christian foundations of our countries crumble away. Bing points out truly that this is common in many places.
Wow, Susan. Your dad was delivered — what a great testimony.
6. Comments on Rebecca’s insight into overcoming spiritual adultery.
Her turning to eating and watching the news was leading into an ever downward spiral. When she decided to turn to God instead, there was, initially, some insecurity – would God really be able to provide the comfort and security that these things did? Rebecca was willing to sit, for a time, in her pain, and wait for Him to come to her. That, I believe, is so important – to be willing to wait patiently for God, instead of turning to quick-fix idols.
7. Read again Revelation 2:20-23. In Mystery Explained, read the next 4 paragraphs beginning with “Yet the Church At Thyatira” and answer:
A. Why might alignment with Christ cause loss to business owners in Thyatira? How might it cost us today?
Thyatira was a prosperous city, and many businesses were linked with idolatrous practices (I’m guessing selling things used in idolatrous practices, or profiting from these practices in some way – maybe a believer being a business partner who was engaging in idolatry). So to refuse to profit from or partner with those who engage in such practices would’ve put a believer in a real bind, perhaps unable to compete with other businesses. Today, believers who refuse to be dishonest in their business practices could be less profitable, less “successful”. It can be hard to see those around you cheating on their taxes, or cutting corners, and maybe even being ridiculed for not doing the same.
B. How will Christ judge Jezebel and her followers?
Christ is coming in imminent judgment on this church (I will strike her children dead). Those who seek to destroy God’s church will themselves be destroyed. Campbell translated another passage from the NT as that they will be “torn limb from limb”.
C. Closely connected with Jezebel is the counterfeit church (Babylon) and the counterfeit Holy Spirit (the false prophet). Dr. Campbell says these pictures are meant to shock Christians and prevent them from compromising. How do they impact you?
It is certainly a wake-up call to all of us today, well, really all of us throughout history, because false teachers aren’t anything new. I remember listening to a couple of Rob Bell podcasts out of curiosity, and found them rather empty in meaning. He certainly knows the Bible, as a former pastor, but they left me feeling flat. (I think his one book, called Love Wins, states that there really isn’t a hell?) So these images in Revelation, gruesome and frightening, serve to take off the mask, so to speak, of people and ideas we may have grown complacent to, or may have slipped under our radar, showing them for the monstrosities that they really are.
D. Share anything else that stands out to you from these 4 paragraphs.
It stood out that the concept of “sexual immorality” (porneia, in the Greek) also encompasses the wider area of any kind of moral compromise. Anytime that I compromise on what I know is right and true, I am engaging in spiritual immorality.
Monday
5. Briefly share a way God has answered prayer for ones you love to encourage us all.
This one took place many years ago but it still encourages me today. My husband had a job in Oregon that took him away from his family for 2 weeks just about every 6 weeks. I prayed and prayed that God would provide a job that wouldn’t take him away so much and also appreciated and valued his work ethic. It was over 10 years of prayer and I figured it wasn’t God’s plan. He got a call from a company in NC that wanted to interview him for a management position in the industry he was already in, still traveling but only would be gone 2–3 days every few months. It wasn’t a year after we left Oregon that the company he was working for there, went belly up. God’s timing is not our timing…but it’s always the best! I learned how important it is to be persistent in prayer but also trust Him.
Sharon–This encouraged me this morning. I’m humbled by your faithfulness to keep praying over 10 years, ” to be persistent in prayer but also trust Him.” Love how He provided.
Sharon, such an answer to prayer! What a wait! But your right. God’s timing is always the best for us.
Sharon, What an amazing answer to prayer! I do believe God wants up to continue praying, even if we are in doubt and feel like giving up. What a beautiful example of your strong faith. Thank you for sharing this. Hearing these stories encourages so many others to continue praying.
Tuesday
6. Comments on Rebecca’s insight into overcoming spiritual adultery.
”It wasn’t a quick fix, it was like a stream.” ‘God’s intimacy is like a stream and I hate it when rocks get in the way.” We live in a society of quick fixes, now, now, now! I love how she expresses her cultivation of intimacy with God. I also love that God was right there all the time wanting that intimacy. How it must of thrilled His heart when she reached out to Him. I think of that with my idols right now…my rock/rocks that are in the way that have removed God from the throne and slowed down the stream. Lord, please forgive me for breaking Your heart with idol worship. I cry out for strength and desire to replace them with You, making You first place.
For some reason this week I feel like I’m treading mud, please forgive the little I do here and there…God’s working on me.❤️
Oh Lord, please lift Sharon out of this temporary miry clay!
❤️Thank you Dee!
Tuesday
7. Read again Revelation 2:20-23. In Mystery Explained, read the next 4 paragraphs beginning with “Yet the Church at Thyatira” (stop at “If the warnings…” in kindle) and answer:
A. Why might alignment with Christ cause loss to business owners in Thyatira? Because many business organizations were often linked with idolatrous practices it would be impossible to carry on business without some link to them which would make it difficult for the Christian to continue doing business with them.
How might it cost us today? It could cost us our jobs, our livelihood or land us in jail. I remember the county clerk from Kentucky who was jailed for refusing to issue a marriage license to a same sex couple in 2016 because of her belief that marriage is between a man and woman. When my husband interviewed for his job here in NC he told them that he would not take the job if they wanted him to deal with their sister company because of one man that worked there he knew was dishonest. It wasn’t long after they hired him that this man was let go.
B. How will Christ judge Jezebel and her followers? He’ll throw her on a bed of suffering and those who commit adultery with her will suffer greatly unless they repent and turn from her evil. He’ll strike her children dead.
C. Closely connected with Jezebel is the counterfeit church (Babylon) and the counterfeit Holy Spirit (the false prophet). Dr. Campbell says these pictures are meant to shock Christians and prevent them from compromising. How do they impact you? Oh how important it is to know the Word of God and be discerning of all teaching!
D. Share anything else that stands out to you from these 4 paragraphs. “Both letters and visions are addressed to Christians and churches of every age, and both deal with the same fundamental issues.” This tells me that all that is written in this book is for us today and we have to take heed, quit thinking, oh, I don’t have to worry about this…it’s going to happen in the future.
I will say that you are kicking my butt with this study Dee! I am struggling; it is hard. Still on Tuesday, Ugh! I will persevere!
C. Closely connected with Jezebel is the counterfeit church (Babylon) and the counterfeit Holy Spirit (the false prophet). Dr. Campbell says these pictures are meant to shock Christians and prevent them from compromising. How do they impact you?
They are shocking. I wonder if maybe deep in my heart I don’t really believe it will happen to me? My “lover(s),” food, myself, etc. sidetrack me often. Does this mean He will strike me dead too? And my children? But, I am human! He knows I can’t possibly be perfect. I guess it means if I lead people astray though?
D. Share anything else that stands out to you from these 4 paragraphs.
The word “pornography” must come from the word “porneia?”
Good for you for persevering. That’s exactly what Jesus tells us in Rev. 2:25, Laura.
D. Share anything else that stands out to you from these 4 paragraphs.
It raises a very controversial issue for me which I hesitate to raise. Paul bases her teaching against women on the grounds that Eve “seduced” Adam and Campbell draws a parallel here. This whole issue of women leaders in the church and what they can and cannot do is a big issue right now. In part, Beth Moore’s leaving the Southern Baptist Convention has triggered a crisis in some evangelical churches who had allowed their women to embrace Beth’s teaching for many years. I know a woman who has taught men (like in an adult Sunday School class) who is now questioning whether or not she should have done this or should ever do it again. Yet, I know her to be a sound teacher, firmly based in Scripture.
It is interesting that the false prophet here in Thyatira is a woman and Babylon is portrayed as a seductress. Is this, as Campbell suggests, a reason to prohibit women from teaching?
Diane,
This was part of my Tuesday reply that somehow didn’t post. God gave Adam the command not to eat from the tree, he seems to have been right next to her and did not challenge the serpent.
I frowned when I read this part!
Personally I wouldn’t choose to attend a church with a female pastor, but the rigidity some have about women teaching anyone but other women and children seems like straining out gnats and swallowing camels.
I agree Chris. It makes me sad.
Diane — I could write a lot here, but a few principles of hermeneutics help me. We have to look at the whole context of the Word of God. In some places it seems women are told not to teach, yet women were teaching and praised for doing so — Priscilla and Acquilla(and she is is consistently mentioned before her husband Aquilla) taught Apollos a more excellent way. Women were prophesying, judging, working alongside Paul with the gospel. So how are we to put this together?
I don’t know the whole history of Beth Moore, but I could sympathize with, having been sexually abused, why she couldn’t vote for Trump. If the hullabaloo was all about that, that’s Christian Nationalism, which is dangerous too. But there may have been more to it. That’s a separate issue.
Another principle is to interpret unclear passages in light of clear passages, and still another, which is controversial, but I believe important, it to realize some illustrations are in light of the culture at the time. This is too much to go into in detail, but one of the clearest examples of this is from John Stott on what has been one of the most difficult passages that has been used to keep women from teaching: 1 Tim 2:11-12. In the context of 1 Tim 2:8-15, which includes the passage we are discussing — here is some of what he says.
There are 3 eternal principles, and 3 cultural illustrations. We must obey the eternal principles, but we do not have to obey the cultural illustrations.
Eternal principles:
Men ought always to pray
Women are to dress modestly
Women are not to have authority over the male leadership
Cultural examples:
Men should lift up hands while praying
Women should not wear braids or pearls
Women should not teach
Those are from Stott — this next is from me
I think because of our relational gifts, we may have a greater tendency to be deceived, and there is an order in creation. If we are in submission to the male leadership of the church, we can use our gifts for teaching. If you are in a church that prohibits women from teaching, you will have to find another area to use your gifts or go to a church that allows you to use your gifts. The saved through childbirth of this passage means we are saved through the birth of a child – and all believers are cleansed and equipped in Him.
Dee, Thank you for sharing this. I especially love your thoughts in the last paragraph. You are such a blessing and have the gift of encouraging others.
I agree with Patti. This came up in a church we attended with one of the woman who was very gifted in teaching the word and one man didn’t think she should be teaching men. I always go to 1 Corinthians 11 where it speaks of an order of headship and God is head over Christ, Christ is over men and men over woman…as long as the woman recognizes the headship of men and obeys accordingly she is able to teach or not teach. This has nothing to do with inferiority or superiority but rather this order being God-ordained. The woman I spoke of above chose to recognize that headship even though it was only one man so as to not cause any division.
Thank you for this Dee ❤️
Thanks for this, Dee. Women teaching and women in leadership is such a controversy today. I appreciate your thoughts. Stott’s thoughts about the difference between eternal principles and cultural examples is helpful.
Diane — it was light turned on for me — helps reconcile those apparent contradictions about women teaching. I don’t know that I could go to a church the prohibited me from teaching in mixed groups, but sometimes there simply doesn’t seem to be a choice. I don’t think a woman should be a lead pastor, and many of those women are teaching progressive Christianity, though not all. We have a woman pastor here who has been very bold about the validity of Scripture and even gave her church a choice between choosing her or staying with their synod which no longer held to God’s Word. They chose her, but there has been a fall-out that has been hurtful. Yet she is a little Martin Luther. Here I stand!
Thanks for your further comments, Dee. It’s getting tougher to be a solidly biblical woman teacher in a very divided church these days. My friend is walking a fine line – with great teaching gifts in a church denomination that is against women leading men, yet is sending inconsistent messages. Can’t go into details, obviously.
This is a very interesting conversation….I’ve been going to an Episcopalian church recently. The lead pastor, Mark, is very soundly biblically based. He preached a wonderful sermon the other week on John 3:16. The associate rector, Susan, is a fully ordained, seminary educated priest in the Episcopal church. I also appreciate her teaching. My thoughts, too, on the Eve leading Adam astray thing is that there have been many instances in history and currently where male pastors have or are leading people astray, too. I’m not sure that I believe that females carry some kind of defect within them that makes them susceptible to this….some of the biggest “falls” in Christianity, such as Ravi Zacharias, have been men.
Susan, also a very good point on men leading astray. Jesus and the apostles warn of this continually. I appreciate all the contributions to this discussion. Iron sharpens iron.
I love this thread of conversation. Due to our church’s situation when our former pastor died unexpectedly, Richard and I were thrust into leadership. I ended up teaching a small mixed group of men and women for Sunday School. Most of the attendees were older than me. I have hesitated some for a while but the church and my now pastor-husband said that I am doing this under his headship not only as my husband but more especially as the pastor. And our church agreed to have me continue teaching this group.
Our blog studies here have continued to affirm my role in the church and also have encouraged me to be a good student of the Word. I am asking the Holy Spirit to convict me when I am stepping out of bounds of the Word of God.
Bing, thanks for sharing this. I will be praying for you. It is so important to be a good student of the Word and follow your husband/pastor and the Holy Spirit.
Diane, do you think the part that says “…leading others astray.” is important to note here?
“…woman teacher leading others astray.”
As long as a teaching woman doesn’t lead people astray, it is ok for her to teach?
Laura, I am not sure how to answer your question about “As long as a teaching woman doesn’t lead people astray, it is ok for her to teach?” How would we know if we are leading others astray? Many people are convinced they are right and speaking the truth but are not. We can be sincere and be sincerely wrong.
Good point!
8. Finish Dr. Campbell’s section under The Church at Thyatira and share anything that stands out to you.
God will judge the disobedient church.
I see the connection between the “deep things of Satan” and the Progressive Christianity which proclaims itself “new” revelation. We are charged to remain faithful to God, Jesus and the Word.
“We are called to be willing to suffer rather than compromise our commitment to Christ and his kingdom.”
9. The promise of being given “The Morning Star” to those who persevere is a reference to Christ Himself, the “bright and morning star.” (Revelation 22:16) He guides us through the darkness to our home with Him. Praise Him here.
Precious Jesus, who suffered, died and rose again for buy us back to you, thank you that you are the “Morning Star”, our hope, our confidence, our life. You made all things through the word of your mouth. Thank you that one day creation will be restored to its perfection as it was in Eden. Sin will be no more. Thorns, drought, sickness and destruction will be no more. Death will be no more. Jezebel will be no more. Help us to cling to you and your truths, to hold fast and teach your truth. Give us your strength, courage, hope in these dark days.
Thursday/Friday: Colin Hansen Interview with Alisa Childers
10. Share what you learned that you want to remember! Also, any comments.
Great interview!
Progressive Christianity (PC-can I also say, politically correct?) questions the reliability of the Scripture…The Bible is more like an ancient travel journal…not necessarily inerrant. PC is a united movement that largely came out of the evangelical church… leaders are more women now with social media helping with the rise of these leaders.
Alisa had a significant period of doubt as faith was deconstructed and explained away. Did God really exist? Apologetics has helped her.
Her parents would not have foreseen the internet coming.
This exchange struck me:
CH: Why can we not pick and choose?
AC: We are left with ourselves as the authority to decide which part we believe or not believe; filter things through God’s Word. I can base my life in the Bible because God cannot err, the Bible is His Word…This makes God a part liar if we pick and choose what is right for us…Either God is or you are the authority.
More bible is the answer.
If we are seeking for truth, deconstruction can be beneficial. Walking through doubt is okay but it depends on your motivation.
Two types of doubt:
Doubt where you are seeking truth- I think it can be healthy; go through our belief and is this true’ motivation to find the truth, to land on truth no matter what that leads to can be healthy.
Doubt that seeking justification for unbelief; somebody looking for reasons to look for exit door, cultural relativism; pressure to not land on a conclusion because you might be thought of as old-fashioned.
In another interview or article, Alisa said she seeks to” have a vibrant, intellectually informed faith”. Yes!
My comment:
A realization that many of my friends who profess to be Christians are sold into progressive Christianity based on this article. What a slippery slope it is but in such an insidious way.
I can’t help but think of the “boiling frog syndrome”. It is a metaphor used to describe the failure to act against a problematic situation which will then increase in severity until it reaches catastrophic proportion.
This has really radically changed my attitude towards the urgency of having a vibrant, intellectually informed faith as Alisa said. Ignorance of the truth is one thing but knowing the truth and trying to explain it away to be PC is a very dangerous thing. I see Thyatira in our generation.
Thank you for sharing such great notes on this interview, Bing. I loved that same exchange about we are left with ourselves to be the authority on which part of the Bible we choose to believe or not believe…..either God is the authority or you are the authority. So simple and concise. I love your “boiling frog syndrome” metaphor! So true. You have such great insights.
I was not familiar with the lives of Jen Hatmaker, Glennon Doyle or Rachel Held Evans; I looked up and read about each one of them~ their lives have some similarities, in that they all seemed to be seeking ways to find “happiness” in their lives. I felt that each of them was in a way seeking to make God in their image, to fit their desires ~ I am not making a judgment at all, but it struck a familiar chord. I think this is a way we develop idols in our lives. I am so thankful for your book and study on idols, Dee. It really helped me to see that I have the approval and comfort idol. I am quickly reminded when I am overly sensitive about something or get my feelings hurt, that it is one of “my idols” vying for my attention.
Oh Patti — me too. And like Calvin said, our hearts are idol-making factories.
Patti, this hit me- I am quickly reminded when I am overly sensitive about something or get my feelings hurt, that it is one of “my idols” vying for my attention.
This is often a struggle for me and I am glad you articulated it so well. I need to watch for these moments.
Thursday/Friday: Colin Hansen Interview with Alisa Childers
10. Share what you learned that you want to remember! Also, any comments.
The part that I believe will stick with me from the interview is this:The doubt that is seeking truth vs the doubt that is seeking to justify unbelief.
The whole thing was enlightening, I had not heard many of these terms before, but I have seen some of what was discussed happening in churches around me.
I was also convicted that I often refuse to land on a conclusion, I have often said I am glad not to be in Church leadership where one must state a position on certain things, but I am convicted that maybe my approval idol keeps me from really lining up on the side of truth sometimes.I can be a real wimp!
We could be Wimps for Jesus.
Maybe not.
Saturday:
11. What is your take-a-way this week and why?
This was probably the scariest warning for the churches. A slow infiltration from within the church has been happening through the years. Our enemy repeats history using the same tactics, increasing his “minions” so we must heed the warning of Jesus Christ and put on His armor of truth.
The urgency of the matter has placed a desire in me to study some more (like the Bereans carefully searching the Scriptures) asking the Holy Spirit to be my guide and wisdom in order to have “a vibrant, intellectually informed faith”.
It is easy for me to think to leave the sharing of the gospel to those who are gifted in evangelism or apologetics. But we have been called to be ambassadors of the gospel. With God’s help, let it be so for me.
II Corinthians 5:18-21 And all of this is a gift from God, who brought us back to himself through Christ. And God has given us this task of reconciling people to him. For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation. So we are Christ’s ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!” For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin so that we could be made right with God through Christ. NLT
Since the title is aptly called “Thyatira’s poison”, I thought of activated charcoal as a universal antidote to ingested poison. Although this antidote has some differing opinions in its effect, I thought it is a kind of metaphor to our topic here. I asked myself, “what is our “activated charcoal “to spiritual poison? The truth! And it is always effective when handled with wisdom from above and His love and without compromise.
Love this comparison of activated charcoal as an antidote to poison, and the truth is that to spiritual poison!
Good analogy (activated charcoal) Bing!
Alisa Childers:
This stood out:
“ the concept of disenculturation—disenculturation being the way that we begin to separate our identity and our beliefs from what we’ve inherited. And that’s more or less inevitable for everybody now. And so, I think one thing that’s hard for people who grew up steeped in a Christian subculture is the inability to differentiate between what the Bible teaches and ultimately who God is and what he teaches from what our church and family present him to be. And even in great families, that’s not usually going to be a 100 percent correlation. Everybody has to go through that process.”
I have been seeking God now, for myself (not for anyone else or because I was “supposed to”), for about 15 years. I have never heard this term. I found it interesting. This time has been so important to my growth as a Christian.
8. Finish Dr. Campbell’s section under The Church at Thyatira and share anything that stands out to you.
“Any revelation undiscovered by any faithful believers over the last two thousand years is unlikely to be accurate.”
Remain steadfast in our faith until the end.
9. The promise of being given “The Morning Star” to those who persevere is a reference to Christ Himself, the “bright and morning star.” (Revelation 22:16) He guides us through the darkness to our home with Him. Praise Him here.
Thank You, O Holy One! Thank You for keeping me and my loved ones safe. Thank You for always being here for me, for guiding me, for loving me. Thank You for being the light of the world! Thank You for including me in Your kingdom! Amen!
That was so good from Dr. Campbell — which is why John tells us in his letter to stick with what we heard from the beginning! Thanks, Laura.
Laura, I have never heard of the word, “disenculturation” before. To me, it does make sense having been raised in a conservative Christian home. I realized later in life that I have to have my own faith, my own walk with God, and not just be riding on the coattails of my parents’ Christianity.
I have been on the sidelines though following the study, as I have never been so busy as I have for the past few months during my husband’s illness and surgery. But my prayers are being answered! He is on day 24, his surgeon is pleased with his progress and he is finally able to do a little outside activity. Yes, God is good and He is the healer. Also one of my grandsons has started to seek to know God through the Word. He went through a tough year, his first as a police officer, during the pandemic. He has witnessed some horrors with suicide and shootings. This past week we have been on the phone with him , answering some questions and reading together and praying. What a joy to see God draw him close.
He is looking for a church so I have been able to share there are signs to watch out for, as Alisa found and guides us through her book, Another Gospel.
I am so glad to hear that your husband continues to improve, Shirley. Also, what a joy to hear about the spiritual growth of your grandson. I pray with you that he will find a godly church – there are so many dangers out there, even in the “church”.
Shirley, thank you for the update on your husband. Glad to know he is able to do a little outside activity. And praise God for your grandson’s being drawn close to God.
I will pray for your husband and your grandson! Good things abound 😉.
Shirley — thanks for sharing this. We will pray for your husband and your grandson, the police officer seeking God. How hard to be in the police force today!