As you probably know, Paige was kept from giving her teaching on Daniel 6 by a broken water main in Nashville that blocked the way to her church. Pretty unusual!
However, even if the enemy successfully stalled or even stopped her teaching, he never wins. Once again, we will do Tim Keller ‘s take on this passage. He said many people have misinterpreted this famous story of Daniel in the Lion’s Den and assumed if they are good, nothing bad will happen to them. So when that proved untrue, they thought God was untrue. That is not the teaching of Daniel 6.
We do have an enemy who brings death, tears and sorrow into our lives. But ultimately, He will be destroyed and there will be no more death, no more tears, and no more sorrow.
Photo courtesy of Pexels Rainu Dipinder
Well may the accuser roar
of sins that I have done
I know them all and thousands more
Jehovah knoweth none
Samuel Gandy
Click Below to Hear Tim Keller’s Podcast from Gospel in Life
https://podcast.gospelinlife.com/e/the-lions-of-god-1631891627/
Do all the green and whatever black you can.
Icebreaker:
Have you been surprised by the fiery trials in your life? Why or why not? If not, share one thing that helped you trust God in those trials.
1. Read Daniel 6:1-10 and share what stands out and why.
Keller says as true believers these things should be true in our lives: salt, hurt, and light. (These can all be seen in the beatitudes of Jesus in Matthew 5)
SALT
2. Listen to Keller up until he gets to his second point about “hurt” and share what stands out to you and why.
3. We are to be the salt of the world, rather than separated from the world. Name ways you see this in Daniel in Daniel 6:3-4.
4. Keller talked about how Christians desire to separate from the world: Christian schools, Christian retirement centers, the best neighborhoods… what are your thoughts on this? In your life, how are you moving into the places that are rotting?
5. Keller talked about how many Christians go into the world (such as New York City) in order to make a name for themselves, which was the motive of those who built the Tower of Babel. Can you think of any ways you have tried to use God for your own advancement rather than His glory?
6. Where was Daniel’s identity and how did he demonstrate his fearlessness of what the world might think?
7. Keller said Daniel had a secular job. What was his point?
HURT: PART I.
8. Listen up to the break, when Gospel in Life gives an ad, and share what stands out and why.
9. What, according to verse 8, was the first trigger to the hostility of the officials? When you are jealous of the blessing, promotion, or success of a sister in Christ, what is your root problem?
10. What did Keller say was the ultimate reason for hostility against Christians? Do you agree or not and why?
HURT: PART II.
11. Listen up to when Keller jokes: Be like Daniel — let’s close in prayer. (He often does that for his point is we can’t live up to the high standard, but we can be strengthened to live better by pointing to and abiding in the ultimate Daniel, the ultimate Moses, the ultimate Esther…) What stands out and why?
12. Why is it that no matter how hard you try to love people in the world you are going to be misunderstood and hurt?
13. Keller says the world equates Christianity with religion rather than the gospel. Take a look at this chart and comment on two differences between religion and the gospel:
LIGHT
14. Read Daniel 6:16-23 and share what stands out and why.
15. Keller said roaring lions in Scripture represent judgment. How do you see this in Isaiah 5:25-29? Then how do you see that one day this will all be changed in Isaiah 11:6-7?
16. Listen to Keller to the end and share what stands out and why?
17. What are some similarities between Daniel and the ultimate Daniel and what are some differences?
18. Why does Darius love Daniel?
19. How can we be both salt (truth) and light (love) at the same time? I’m going to bring up a raging controversy right now about Alistair Begg telling a grandmother to go to the transgender wedding of her grandchild and to take a gift. I’d like to know how in these kind of situations we can be both truth and love? And I’m going out on a limb here, but after you answer, I’d like to share my thoughts which I sent to the podcast I like The World and Everything In It. But share your thoughts first, please.
My thoughts are below:
Listener Feedback Feb. 2024 (1)
128 comments
Thank you, Dee! Praising God that you did not let the enemy stop our study!!
Patti, I wholeheartedly agree! And TK is always a breath of fresh air! Plus, I like his dry humor.
Agreed! Back off Satan!🐍
Satan is so silly, thinking he could stop God’s plan.
Icebreaker:
Have you been surprised by the fiery trials in your life? Why or why not? If not, share one thing that helped you trust God in those trials.
Fiery trials still catch me off guard at times. The Holy Spirit has been helping me with my responses, though by prompting me to go to His Word. My physical tiredness this past week has weakened me spiritually. But God is gracious not to leave me in the pit.
1. Read Daniel 6:1-10 and share what stands out and why.
I was curious to know how old Daniel would have been by now. I looked it up and found that Daniel would have been 81 years old when he was thrown into the lion’s den! He was 15 when he entered the service of Neb. 66 years of being true to his faith despite the possible intrigues and politics he must have faced!
I doubt that this was the only time that the other administrators and officers conspired against him.
Keller says as true believers these things should be true in our lives: salt, hurt, and light. (These can all be seen in the beatitudes of Jesus in Matthew 5)
I am curious to get to the section of “hurt”.
Interesting about his age, Bing. I think he must have died when they got to go home — I just know he didn’t get to go after the 70 years.
Dee, the thought that Daniel, an excellent man that he was did not get to go home after 7o years is sobering. A well-lived life for the Lord is as He has portioned it to be. He lived as an exile but with the Lord’s song on his lips. Not measured by the number of years nor of any earthly accomplishments.
I may not be able to see some of the things that I pray for as well before the Lord takes me home. It may be a sad thought but God’s good will for me and His sovereignty encourages me. His ways are higher than my ways and his thoughts higher than mine. Praise Him!
Good thoughts, Bing.
Sobering indeed, Bing! God is teaching me to trust Him even if I never see the answers for which I pray, knowing that eternity is coming. It’s a tough lesson I have to learn repeatedly.
WOW Bing, 81 years old and 66 years of not falling away from God. That is true faith and trust right there.
Icebreaker:
Have you been surprised by the fiery trials in your life? Why or why not? If not, share one thing that helped you trust God in those trials.
Yes, I have been surprised by my trials. They just keep coming and coming.
T1. Read Daniel 6:1-10 and share what stands out and why.
They continue to pick on Daniel here by “tattling” again. They just don’t mention his name. Such jealous people! Daniel just continues his life as normal; he loves the Lord.
Icebreaker:
Have you been surprised by the fiery trials in your life? If not, share one thing that helped you trust God in those trials.
When I saw the phrase “fiery trials” the first thing that came to my mind was 1 Peter 4:12-19…” ”Dear friends, don’t be surprised at the fiery trials you are going through, as if something strange were happening to you. Instead, be very glad—for these trials make you partners with Christ in his suffering, so that you will have the wonderful joy of seeing his glory when it is revealed to all the world. If you are insulted because you bear the name of Christ, you will be blessed, for the glorious Spirit of God rests upon you. If you suffer, however, it must not be for murder, stealing, making trouble, or prying into other people’s affairs. But it is no shame to suffer for being a Christian. Praise God for the privilege of being called by his name! For the time has come for judgment, and it must begin with God’s household. And if judgment begins with us, what terrible fate awaits those who have never obeyed God’s Good News? And also, “If the righteous are barely saved, what will happen to godless sinners?” So if you are suffering in a manner that pleases God, keep on doing what is right, and trust your lives to the God who created you, for he will never fail you.“
Yes, I have been surprised because I couldn’t/can’t understand why and I feel blindsided. The one thing that has helped me is remembering God’s faithfulness and the other thing I try to do is ask God to show me what He is teaching me through the trial.
1. Read Daniel 6:1-10 and share what stands out and why.
Darius obviously knew about Daniel’s administrative gifts (something Belshazzar had no clue about) and trusted him.
Jealousy of Daniel overtook the reasoning of the other officials…it’s amazing how we allow others and what they’re doing to live rent free within our minds.
Love both of your great answers, Sharon!! This is good: it’s amazing how we allow others and what they’re doing to live rent free within our minds.
From Sharon:
it’s amazing how we allow others and what they’re doing to live rent free within our minds.
Thank you for writing how those beautiful and comforting verses, Sharon.
Icebreaker:
Have you been surprised by the fiery trials in your life? Why or why not? If not, share one thing that helped you trust God in those trials. – I tend to forget just how good God is and has been when they come. Once I realize and remember that I can find peace in the situation because I’ve seen Him work in my life in the past issues that have come up.
1. Read Daniel 6:1-10 and share what stands out and why. – Again it seems that everyone knows how upstanding Daniel is and they all become jealous of him. They have to manipulate the king in order to find something that Daniel will not alter from. Daniel has so much faith in God, his trust in God allows him to be where he is at the time and still show honor and glory to God. His faith is so strong that he just accepts the plan for his life God has laid out before him.
Keller says as true believers these things should be true in our lives: salt, hurt, and light. (These can all be seen in the beatitudes of Jesus in Matthew 5) – Believers are not exempt from trials, sorrows or hurt. But when they come, we need to stand against them so others can see the glory and power of the God we serve. I think it’s ok to show that we are hurt, but the true test is how long we stay there and how we handle it all. Who do we run to when we hurt will allow others to see God’s goodness and our trust in him.
Daniel 6:1-10 Two things stood out to me as I read: 1. Like Jesus, the men in charge could find no fault in Daniel. 2. They appealed to Darius’ pride, and he fell into their trap.
SALT
2. What stood out to me was the use of salt (Christianity) as a preservative to prevent rottenness.
3. Daniel was hardworking, trustworthy, incorruptible.
4. This is not an opinion about the quality of Christian schools, I am not saying that there should be no Christian schools.
That being stated, I once read “If we refuse to teach in public schools, or send our children to public schools becoming involved as parents, that’s like turning those schools and children over to Satan.” That’s not a direct quote. but it has always stuck in my mind. Working in a public school. I always tried to remember that and act accordingly.
Now that I am retired, I find myself withdrawing more, which we discussed when Paige talked about the passage from Jeremiah. Dee’s question puts it in a different light, “How are you moving into the places that are rotting?’ I’m not, I don’t want to go there! But it’s not really up to me is it? This will take more thought on my part. Visiting in SC for the winter, I am not really involved in any community activity (except church and bible study group), so when I get back to NY I will have to open my eyes, so to speak.
6. Daniel’s identity was grounded in his faith, and he publicly prayed to the Lord three times daily.
7. Daniel had all the revelation and gifts of an old testament prophet, yet he worked diligently at a secular job (reminiscent of Joseph), The point being that you don’t have to be a missionary or full time church employee (or teach only in Christian schools). Where you work is not a sign of how spiritual you are.
I think sometimes people tend to “rate” others by their involvement at church or the job thy work at. 1 Samuel 16:7 “…for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.” In context that refers to physical appearance, but it also applies to other areas.
I so appreciate your thoughtful response to moving into areas that are rotting!
SALT
2. Listen to Keller up until he gets to his second point about “hurt” and share what stands out to you and why. – Salt gets deeply involved in places and people that fall apart. This is Jesus. He went to where people were needy in many things. They didn’t have it all together, but it didn’t stop Jesus from going there. We need to not assimilate or separate. This is good and something I need to truly work on. I tend to be very cautious when things don’t look like I’m used to seeing them. But being too cautious is stopping me from being salt.
3. We are to be the salt of the world, rather than separated from the world. Name ways you see this in Daniel in Daniel 6:3-4. – He did what was required of him so well, his qualities were seen by the king and set above the other administrators. He did what that society was to do, he didn’t cheat or try to be better than everyone else, he was just a child of God, and it was seen. He fit into their culture but didn’t fall from God.
4. Keller talked about how Christians desire to separate from the world: Christian schools, Christian retirement centers, the best neighborhoods… what are your thoughts on this? In your life, how are you moving into the places that are rotting? – I think in today’s world it is not so much for status anymore, but for us to be like minded. For our kids to learn Godly things and not what school systems force teachers to teach. We definitely feel more comfortable around other likeminded people, but my neighborhood is not the best. There are a lot of ‘believers’ in this little corner of NE Tennessee, and I can feel like I’m with likeminded people, but I also see house left abandoned, ones that are run down and people who aren’t like me and where some think I’m a foreigner because of my lack of an accent. But I can see the love they have for not just those of their own, but for me as well. I guess if I continue to have the thought that I need to be around others like me, and I know I do to be lifted up and refueled, but how will others know the love of Jesus if we stay out and separate ourselves from them. Hmm, I need to think about this a lot more to make sure I’m not separating myself from them.
5. Keller talked about how many Christians go into the world (such as New York City) in order to make a name for themselves, which was the motive of those who built the Tower of Babel. Can you think of any ways you have tried to use God for your own advancement rather than His glory? – When I do things for others, I try to not broadcast it, but I guess if some see me doing it, or hear about it, it could come across that I’m trying to stand out among the crowd. But I don’t like to be in the center, I don’t like attention and I try to do things behind the scenes. I hope the things I do are in obedience to the tug from God, and not for my own glory and recognition.
6. Where was Daniel’s identity and how did he demonstrate his fearlessness of what the world might think? – His identity was in Christ. He knew he had to do what the society/culture required in order to live, but he did it in a way that still honored God and that showed his faith and trust in Christ. He didn’t try to make a name for himself, it just came because of his actions in Christ.
7. Keller said Daniel had a secular job. What was his point? – His job was in the world. It wasn’t for God’s kingdom. He did what he was required to do and what the king set before him and did it well.
Appreciate this from Julie: Hmm, I need to think about this a lot more to make sure I’m not separating myself from them.
2. Listen to Keller up until he gets to his second point about “hurt” and share what stands out to you and why.
Daniel is helping us know how to live in the world.
We (and Daniel) are the salt of the earth.
Daniel was of excellence. He is an example of what Jeremiah tells the Israelites, from God.
Neither assimilate, nor separate. Work for the peace of the whole city.
Salt gets into the meat. It was also a preservative. We Christians, need to permeate our world.
Making a name for yourself leads to breakdown. We are not meant to be alone. We already have our name from God. It’s all we need. We don’t need to minimize others because we already have our name. We are salt. We have the call to do that. Justice, peace, compassion.
Salt will affect what we do in our work. Daniel had a secular job, he could have been a prophet but wasn’t. The church should not have an attitude that we should all be missionaries or pastors. We can be effective where we are. Where should we live? We want to live in safe places where we feel comfortable. Salt goes to the falling apart places.
We already have our name from God. It’s all we need.
Thanks for the reminder, Laura! We are complete in Him.
Icebreaker:
Have you been surprised by the fiery trials in your life? Why or why not?I used to be because I had the misguided belief that if I was in God’s will then everything would go relatively smoothly in my life. If not, share one thing that helped you trust God in those trials. The more that I study God’s word and read books about other believers and the trials that they faced, the more assured I am that God is in control and ordains everything that is happening.
1. Read Daniel 6:1-10 and share what stands out and why. That 120 people all conspired against one man. That’s a lot of jealousy and hate.
From Dawn: That 120 people all conspired against one man. That’s a lot of jealousy and hate.
Have you been surprised by the fiery trials in your life? Why or why not? If not, share one thing that helped you trust God in those trials.
I know that trials will come in this life, but I am often surprised from where they come! Often, from people or situations, I would never have thought! I feel that we will always have trials, yet with God, we are able to get through them. Trials can come upon the most innocent people. I don’t see the trials coming from God, but He does allow them. One thing that has helped me trust God through trials is that He allows them for a purpose. We may not always know what that purpose is, in our lifetime. Yet, He is trustworthy. Hopefully, through the trials, we will glorify God. We will never totally understand His purposes in this life. His purpose is for God’s glory. Brings this verse to mind:
(Romans 8:28 -“And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to HIS purpose.” )
1. Read Daniel 6:1-10 and share what stands out and why.
The satraps and other commissioners were jealous of Daniel and did not want him appointed over the entire kingdom. They could not find any grounds or evidence against him because Daniel was faithful, and no negligence or corruption was found in him. The commissioners and satraps established a statute that no one could petition any go or man besides the king for thirty days. The knew that Daniel prayed to the real God of Heaven. They used the statute to trick the king into punishing Daniel for the disobeying the statute.
HURT part 1
8. Rejection of Christians by the world is inevitable. Keller says we have to get used to this. I think we really have such an easy time basically as Christians in the United States. We have no experience to compare with the suffering saints in Africa, Asia, etc.
9. There were three men (one was Daniel) in position over the 120 satraps. Then Daniel is placed as #1 over the other two. That’s when the new problems began, because the all the lesser dignitaries were offended and jealous of Daniel’s promotion.
Being jealous isn’t one of my vices. I choose to rejoice with my sisters’ successes.
10. Keller said the ultimate reason is that Christians are inexplicable.
In countries when Christians are being jailed, tortured, and killed, it’s because they won’t conform to an opposing religion/government. In other countries where this does not happen (like the US, UK, etc), Christianity is viewed as just another religion among many beliefs.
I’m not sure either is from being inexplicable., but I know that each is designed by Satan to try and defeat the church.
SALT
2. Listen to Keller up until he gets to his second point about “hurt” and share what stands out to you and why.
The first principle of salt warns us of separation from the world, trying to pull ourselves out of the world. This is the first sermon I have ever heard on the subject of being salt that helped me gain understanding of this. To neither assimilate nor separate and this is what we see in Daniel’s life and what our lives should be.
1)Move in and became deeply engaged with the culture, economic and social life of the city.
Daniel was deeply engaged, a man who excelled to the top in a pagan government structure.
2)Keep our identity as His people.
Everybody knew what Daniel stood for because of him praying three times a day in front of an open window and even though he’s in Babylon he’s looking towards the city of God.
3)Work for the peace and prosperity of the whole city.
The king does not suffer loss because Daniel is working for the peace of the city, not his own advancement.
3. We are to be the salt of the world, rather than separated from the world. Name ways you see this in Daniel in Daniel 6:3-4.
I answered this in #2.
4. Keller talked about how Christians desire to separate from the world: Christian schools, Christian retirement centers, the best neighborhoods… what are your thoughts on this? In your life, how are you moving into the places that are rotting?
Separation from the world is how I understood being salt to be…I really don’t know how I ever misunderstood this because being an MK we neither assimilated nor separated on the mission field 🤷🏻♀️. We lived near the people, played with them, worshiped with them, helped them and loved them.
I don’t know if I would want my kids to go to a public school today because of all the ideology being taught that is contrary to Christianity.
In my life I’m not moving into places that are rotten. Ashamedly my life probably doesn’t look any different than a non Christian and that is convicting.
5. Keller talked about how many Christians go into the world (such as New York City) in order to make a name for themselves, which was the motive of those who built the Tower of Babel. Can you think of any ways you have tried to use God for your own advancement rather than His glory?
I don’t know about ways that I have used God for my advancement but rather have left Him out.
6. Where was Daniel’s identity and how did he demonstrate his fearlessness of what the world might think?
Daniel’s identity was in the Lord, he lived out what God had done for him and in him…the grace of God was proof of that. He lived out his fearlessness by praying to the true God three times a day in front of an open window after he learned that the law had been signed!
7. Keller said Daniel had a secular job. What was his point?
We don’t have to be a preacher or a missionary to be salt in this world. Keller said, “Daniel helped open the world to the kingdom of God by not being in ministry.
I agree with you about public schools today– at least in many places in America — and children are so vulnerable. I know we had them in public schools when they got into their teens, and they were a light, and yet, it is a different day. I have a close friend who has had her children in the public schools – -recently her youngest, 13, said, “Mom — it’s time for me to get out. I’ll still be salt and light with those friends, but I need not to hear all this every day.”
What an astute 13 yr old! I know it’s time to bail 😉. I try to be salt to my students. I teach content, not ideology.
Amen. What a wise young woman.
Have you been surprised by the fiery trials in your life? Why or why not? If not, share one thing that helped you trust God in those trials. There are times I’ve been surprised but other times I just know that possibility is out there
1. Read Daniel 6:1-10 and share what stands out and why. Jealousy can be a strong motive to hurt another And why did the king listen. Maybe flattery
Keller says as true believers these things should be true in our lives: salt, hurt, and light. (These can all be seen in the beatitudes of Jesus in Matthew 5) hurt? I guess he will explain and I always need a refresher on salt meaning.
2. Listen to Keller up until he gets to his second point about “hurt” and share what stands out to you and why. It’s God’s name for us that should define us and His grace our defining factor. Just a good place to rest not what others say or whether I have their approval or not. They are not the one I need approval from.
3. We are to be the salt of the world, rather than separated from the world. Name ways you see this in Daniel in Daniel 6:3-4. He was in Babylon and excelled at his position in the government. He was in the world influencing them by his character and he continued to worship God.
4. Keller talked about how Christians desire to separate from the world: Christian schools, Christian retirement centers, the best neighborhoods… what are your thoughts on this? In your life, how are you moving into the places that are rotting? I can’t say at the present time there is much evidence of that. Possibly talking with people about Jesus in medical office or dentist office.
5. Keller talked about how many Christians go into the world (such as New York City) in order to make a name for themselves, which was the motive those who built the Tower of Babel. Can you think of any ways you have tried to use God for your own advancement rather than His glory? There have been times I was pleased to take a volunteer job or head up a committee or a project for my own esteem problem rather than the privilege of serving God.
6. Where was Daniel’s identity and how did he demonstrate his fearlessness of what the world might think? Daniel’s identity was grounded in God with God’s grace as the defining factor. He was disbursing salt. He could have lived his life as a full time prophet but instead he was involved in administration of the kingdom.
7. Keller said Daniel had a secular job. What was his point? He worked for the kingdom that held him captive to help the nation and people prosper.
This is a great point, Judy. Daniel’s identity was grounded in God with God’s grace as the defining factor. He was disbursing salt. He could have lived his life as a full time prophet but instead he was involved in administration of the kingdom.
3. We are to be the salt of the world, rather than separated from the world. Name ways you see this in Daniel in Daniel 6:3-4.
He was more capable, did his job well, responsible, faithful, and trustworthy.
4. Keller talked about how Christians desire to separate from the world: Christian schools, Christian retirement centers, the best neighborhoods… what are your thoughts on this? In your life, how are you moving into the places that are rotting?
Public school is pretty rotten (my job), I should say! We do karate, dance, and sometimes rec sports. There is rotten there. Other than that, probably not.
Have you been surprised by the fiery trials in your life? Why or why not? If not, share one thing that helped you trust God in those trials.
I haven’t been surprised because God says there will be trials. What helps is to remember I am His. I belong to Him and He will deal with any injustice done to me so I don’t have to let anxiety over take me, or beat myself up if it is a trial I’ve caused by my sin. The worst thing that can happen to me is the pain that squeezes out what I’m really clinging to other than Christ, and that’s hard but so good for me.
1. Read Daniel 6:1-10 and share what stands out and why.
Daniel didn’t talk about how righteous he was, it flowed out of him via God and showed up in how he operated from day to day. They couldn’t find anything to pin against him. It showed up when he refused to obey the edict not to pray to any person or god except the king. He prayed three times a day to God anyway. That shows his passion for, trust, and delight in God.
2. Listen to Keller up until he gets to his second point about “hurt” and share what stands out to you and why.
Don’t separate yourself from the world. Keller points our Jeremiah 29, when he states you must neither separate or assimilate.
Salt gets out; salt gets in; It’s ineffective if it stays together. Loved the example of Jesus touching, embracing engaging the marginalized, the outsider, the foreigner, the leper.
We don’t need to be “self namers”, or gain worldly significance, we just need to belong to Jesus and focus on who we really serve and worship. We have our name from God. Without God, we are self namers.
3. We are to be the salt of the world, rather than separated from the world. Name ways you see this in Daniel in Daniel 6:3-4.
Daniel possessed an extraordinary spirit, he was incorruptible, diligent, and effective. Daniel was never “self serving”.
4. Keller talked about how Christians desire to separate from the world: Christian schools, Christian retirement centers, the best neighborhoods… what are your thoughts on this? In your life, how are you moving into the places that are rotting?
I think this depends upon where you live. Even non-Christians, very liberal people and people from other countries that come to the area where I live, tend to put their children into Private schools. Sadly, the values that have crept into the school system are like a Tsunami wave of bad values, that can turn the schools into unsafe environments. I love people and enjoy getting to know people who are not believers, as well as dear believing friends. My daughter and I are hoping to start a Bible study, if I move to her area. She has many lovely friends, who know nothing of the Bible.
I worked in the world for a very long time, yet I knew many Christians in that world, as well. The values of the “world of Arts” is sometimes, but not usually God centered. I still keep in touch with some from that world. I know some that have come to know Jesus.
5. Keller talked about how many Christians go into the world (such as New York City) in order to make a name for themselves, which was the motive of those who built the Tower of Babel. Can you think of any ways you have tried to use God for your own advancement rather than His glory?
This is a scary thought and if I have ever done that I pray for forgiveness.
6. Where was Daniel’s identity and how did he demonstrate his fearlessness of what the world might think?
Daniel’s identity was with God. He was a believer and he behavior and character spoke loudly of who is was and Who he worshipped.
7. Keller said Daniel had a secular job. What was his point?
Daniel expressed his commitment to the kingdom of God, but helped open the world to the kingdom of God by not being in the ministry. (from Keller’s lecture)
That sounds so good, dear Patti, if you could go to live near your daughter and be able to start a Bible study! I look forward to hearing updates as your plans unfold. I’m sure it’s a lot to think about and prepare for a move.
Dee, I am not sure why my comments are not showing up and I have tried many times since yesterday. I copied and pasted your questions and typed my answers without any quotes from anywhere. I will try again.
Bing — I don’t know. I don’t see any comments needing to be approved. Are you working from a difference device or changed like from Chrome to Safari?
HURT: PART II.
11. Listen up to when Keller jokes: Be like Daniel — let’s close in prayer. (He often does that for his point is we can’t live up to the high standard, but we can be strengthened to live better by pointing to and abiding in the ultimate Daniel, the ultimate Moses, the ultimate Esther…) What stands out and why?
The illustration of using Lord of the Rings was so good and helpful in understanding how we as Christians can be effective in this world but yet alienated at the same time. Like Daniel is more effective in the city of Babylon because three times his heart yearns towards the city of God and the four are so effective in Shyer because they no longer belong there. They all know there is something beyond this world and that is the blessed hope we have as well.
12. Why is it that no matter how hard you try to love people in the world you are going to be misunderstood and hurt?
Because we are hated by the world.
13. Keller says the world equates Christianity with religion rather than the gospel. Take a look at this chart and comment on two differences between religion and the gospel:
The 6th one on prayer…the one under religion used to be what my prayer life was like and was so self centered. It has become more like the gospel prayer life which puts my focus on the Lord…so much more freeing!
The 8th one on identity…is a work in progress. This is one area where the lies of the enemy that are whispered in my ear have to be replaced with His truth, we are all made in His image and the need to extend grace is essential. I also need to remember that my identity is in Jesus Christ!
I too loved the Lord of the Rings illustration, Sharon!
8. Listen up to the break, when Gospel in Life gives an ad, and share what stands out and why. In NYC Christians thought of as religion dead white males.
9. What, according to verse 8, was the first trigger to the hostility of the officials? When you are jealous of the blessing, promotion, or success of a sister in Christ, what is your root problem? The king was wanting to promote Daniel. Hearing of someone I know having greater success in prayer. The healing did come or the boldness of taking authority over situations. Root problem is me. I’m looking for self promotion or others admiration
10. What did Keller say was the ultimate reason for hostility against Christians? Do you agree or not and why they are inexplicably, unpredictable and apparently arrogant. I guess a Christian could come across as arrogant because we are convinced of our future with Christ.
I have that root problem too, Judy — but it is lessening. About time!
11. Listen up to when Keller jokes: Be like Daniel — let’s close in prayer. (He often does that for his point is we can’t live up to the high standard, but we can be strengthened to live better by pointing to and abiding in the ultimate Daniel, the ultimate Moses, the ultimate Esther…) What stands out and why? His explanation using Lord of the Rings as to why new Christians can be out of place in their original home. Their treasure is not the same as the people they used to be around. It can make a marriage have struggles when one spouse is now chasing different things than when they started their marital journey if they both don’t travel the same path together.
12. Why is it that no matter how hard you try to love people in the world you are going to be misunderstood and hurt? Because they don’t understand where you are coming from. Their response to the Christian can be to belittle them, anger towards them or rejection which hurts.
13. Keller says the world equates Christianity with religion rather than the gospel. Take a look at this chart and comment on two differences between religion and the gospel: #1. I had that in the wrong order I thought obedience would bring acceptance not understanding by God’s grace I’m already accepted through Jesus. #8. I also thought if I worked hard enough I would have value. That early on led to sometimes judging others to make myself feel better about myself forgetting we are all equal at the foot of the cross.
SALT
2. Listen to Keller up until he gets to his second point about “hurt” and share what stands out to you and why.
I am always challenged by TK’s love for the city. He is the one who has tempered/corrected my hesitations/prejudice against the city where my daughter lives. I tend to be a separatist for fear that I would assimilate.
1. We are to be the salt of the world, rather than separated from the world. Name ways you see this in Daniel in Daniel 6:3-4.
He did his job exceptionally. He was not corrupt.
2. Keller talked about how Christians desire to separate from the world: Christian schools, Christian retirement centers, the best neighborhoods… what are your thoughts on this? In your life, how are you moving into the places that are rotting?
I appreciate Keller’s pointing out that Jesus moved among the masses. He did not seek out the rich although several in high positions came to seek Him and supported his ministry in many ways, the royal official, the centurion, Joanna (wife of Cuza), Lydia, Mary and Martha Lazarus, Joseph, and Nicodemus. I think it is interesting that these people were often mentioned sort of in the background. Those who gave their lives for Jesus, like the apostles were given more narrative and were the least among the people.
Right now, my job is where God is opening doors for me to rub shoulders with non-Christians or Christmas and Easter churchgoers. I am praying for a heart for the masses.
5. Keller talked about how many Christians go into the world (such as New York City) in order to make a name for themselves, which was the motive of those who built the Tower of Babel. Can you think of any ways you have tried to use God for your own advancement rather than His glory?
I feel like there is such a fine line between excellence for my glory and excellence for God’s glory. He wants us to do things well. For me, it is often a question of how I respond when given praise. I am not very quick to give him glory.
6. Where was Daniel’s identity and how did he demonstrate his fearlessness of what the world might think?
Daniel’s identity was based on who he was with God. Nothing was said about any fear or anxiety on his part when he heard the edict. His practice of having his windows opened so he could pray did not change.
7. Keller said Daniel had a secular job. What was his point?
I do not have to be a missionary or hold a religious position to be salt to the world. My work in a secular job matters to God. He calls us to different places. All of life is ministry work for Jesus.
I was floored when I (maybe) figured out why my comments weren’t coming through. I abbreviated Tim Keller’s name with just the initials and that was sending a red flag to your system, Dee. So because I was frustrated with it, I looked up and it has (maybe again)something to do with those 3 letters. I have found that it is related to an abbreviation for manuscript writing like maybe I was copying something that wasn’t mine. Ugh! AI?
I’m so glad you solved the mystery — how strange!
Goodness, happy you figured that out, Bing!
HURT: PART I. Oops! I accidentally skipped over this part🤦🏻♀️
8. Listen up to the break, when Gospel in Life gives an ad, and share what stands out and why.
Keller says the Hurt principle is that rejection of Christians by the world is to a great degree inevitable and unavoidable.
9. What, according to verse 8, was the first trigger to the hostility of the officials? When you are jealous of the blessing, promotion, or success of a sister in Christ, what is your root problem?
In verse 3 the king was going to promote Daniel and in verse 4 the other administrators and high officials had to do something about it.
I’ve taken my eyes off God and put it on others and self.
10. What did Keller say was the ultimate reason for hostility against Christians? Do you agree or not and why?
”Christians are inexplicable, unpredictable and apparently arrogant.” The arrogant reason caught me off guard but I agree. It must come across as arrogant when we are confident in saying that Jesus is the only way, the truth and the life.
Arrogant. Yes. Once we had a bumper sticker that said Bound for the Promised Land and I got accused of arrogance because most people think you get to heaven by being good.
I’m sorry, Dee, but that made me chuckle! The bumper sticker wasn’t promoting arrogance at all, but funny how we’re often so mis-interpreted.
8. Listen up to the break, when Gospel in Life gives an ad, and share what stands out and why.
Many non-Christians think of Christianity as dead, white men, when in fact, the majority of Christians are now from Africa, Latin America, and Asia.
2 “triggers” that hurt Daniel. The first is old fashioned jealousy. Daniel was being promoted. In their job they would be demoted. The second was how different he was to them. He was not like them because he wasn’t corrupt at all.
Christians are viewed as strange people. The world doesn’t understand us. It is what it is. We are inexplicable, unpredictable, and apparently arrogant.
If you are never hated, then you aren’t doing something right. The world misunderstands, don’t avoid it. Don’t enjoy being persecuted either. The world doesn’t understand the Gospel. Don’t worry about the world because you are following in your Savior’s footsteps. The roots of our soul are with God. It’s where we belong. Not with my looks, my money, my friends, etc.
9. What, according to verse 8, was the first trigger to the hostility of the officials? When you are jealous of the blessing, promotion, or success of a sister in Christ, what is your root problem?
The promotion of Daniel instead of them. If this happens (in the past for me), I would be jealous. It’s all about me.
10. What did Keller say was the ultimate reason for hostility against Christians? Do you agree or not and why?
Ultimate reason is being misunderstood. I think I agree. When I try to defend Jesus, or my faith, to my colleagues, they mock me. They think they know what Christianity is all about. They don’t know about loving Jesus. It’s their world view of Christianity.
It’s why we have to find winsome ways to explain the gospel! I love the gospel versus religion sheet.
I do too, Dee. I saw it first in the Jesus who surprises. You also introduced me to the word perichoresis (hope I haven’t mispelled) to explain the Trinity. I gave that word recently to friends at church when we had sermon on the Trinity and have shared with others during discussions of 3 in 1.
Oh, so true Laura. So many don’t really know what Christianity is. Amen to Dee and Judy…..it is hard to find some winsome ways to explain it.
LIGHT
14. Daniel 6:16-23 what I noticed were the king’s words and actions: says to Daniel (in the den), Thy God will deliver thee; sealed the stone with his ring; returned to palace and fasted; sleepless; arose early and rushed to sealed den; sorrowfully called to Daniel (calls him servant of the living God) basically asking “are you alive?”; overjoyed and has Daniel released from den.
Also in vs. 24 the king has Daniel’s accusers (with their wives and children) thrown to the lions.
This king, who was not a Babylonian, seemingly loved and respected Daniel. He also shows respect for the living God and that this God has the power to deliver Daniel. Did he know the history of S,M,A and the fiery furnace? Daniel’s life was a strong witness to the king, and the king mentions it. The king fasted in silence, was he pleading with the living God?
This all sounds good, but then the king does a horrible thing by executing not only the accusing men, but their families also.
15. Roaring lions symbolize judgement. In Is. 5:25 Israel is warned of coming judgement when bodies will be torn and cast into the streets. In Is. 11:6,7 we see harmony restored, lions and other dangerous animals being led by a child, and the miracle of Daniel and the lions shows us the harmony God desires.
16. What stood out to me was when he said miracles are not suspension of nature but restoration. The greatest miracle for me is my salvation, which has given me reconciliation with God like unto the relationship Adam had at creation, perfect restoration. But at what cost? The death of Jesus, His son (and not just any death, but torturous and bloody), His burial and glorious resurrection.
17. Daniel and Jesus Similarities: innocent, hated by some loved by others, reluctantly condemned (Dairus and Pilate), cast before lions (real and figuratively), sealed in den/tomb, raised out of den/tomb. Differences: man and God-man, Daniel lived Jesus died (but was raised from death)
18. Dairus loves Daniel because of the way Daniel lives his life, salt and light.
19. I agree with Alistair, although I would not give advice unless asked. So I am going to pretend I am that grandmother, since my grandchildren are not believers and I might face that situation one day. I love my grandchildren. To not attend a wedding and withhold that love would be so harmful and put a stumbling block before them. The choice to be transgender would have happened before the wedding. obviously, and that would have been the time to talk about it, if even possible since I am not the parent.
Whew, that was hard. Now onto your response, Dee.
Your response to 18 resonates with me, Cheryl Ann.
After hearing all the storm from pastors against Alistair, it is truly a balm to hear this from you, Cheryl, and Miriam. But it is a Romans 14 issue (not sexuality but how we treat prodigals) so we aren’t supposed to judge!
Thank you for the Romans 14 reference. I’ve reread the chapter. It gives me more to ponder.
I , too, love your answer to 19. Cheryl Ann. Jesus always chooses love. Our call is to be like Him. It is not our call to judge.
8. Listen up to the break, when Gospel in Life gives an ad, and share what stands out and why.
Rejection of Christians by the world is inevitable. Some may think Christians are arrogant or hypocrites or narrow minded. I have met Christians who are a bit that way, but I think it is a perception too. If a Christian makes a mistake or does something that is not Christlike, people can find it a good excuse to reject Christianity. It does put pressure on Christians to try to live up to a high standard. I don’t think any of us can do that totally….and if we think we can and talk like we can, we come off as proud or arrogant. I think it is a good reminder that we are ALL way less than perfect, but we keep trying and are forgiven. If someone is looking for an excuse not to like a Christian, they can hunt for flaws in that person. It is complicated, but I think Christians to live under a microscope to many non-Christians.
9. What, according to verse 8, was the first trigger to the hostility of the officials? When you are jealous of the blessing, promotion, or success of a sister in Christ, what is your root problem?
They were jealous of Daniel, because they could find no flaws and that also made them angry. The root problem with jealousy of others is usually Pride; we desire the attention others are receiving.
10. What did Keller say was the ultimate reason for hostility against Christians? Do you agree or not and why?
Christians are unpredictable and arrogant. I agree that this can be true to an extent, because a true Christian knows he/she is forgiven; yet others might not understand the full story of why we are forgiven. The lack of understanding of Christ is why He (and we) has always been misunderstood.
Patti, your answer to 10 reminded me of a sticker my Mom had on the inside of her car. It said, “Not perfect, just forgiven.” It would seem arrogant if like you said the whole story isn’t known.
I love that sticker Sharon! 🙂 Truth!
A much better bumper sticker than mine, Sharon!
14. Read Daniel 6:16-23 and share what stands out and why. The sealing of the opening of the lion den with signet rings so that Daniel’s situation might not be changed. King didn’t want to but he did it anyway. It confirms that God overrules the plans of men. Such a comfort and the confidence we can have of Who is really in control
15. Keller said roaring lions in Scripture represent judgment. How do you see this in Isaiah 5:25-29? Then how do you see that one day this will all be changed in Isaiah 11:6-7? God called Assyria and Babylon to bring war to Israel and carry them into captivity. One day Christ will return and will reign establishing peace.
16. Listen to Keller to the end and share what stands out and why? Miracles are to point the way to our salvation and restoration not the suspension of natural order. I’d never thought of that but when I think of the miracles Jesus did He was restoring and pointing the way of things to come, Sure makes me smile.
17. What are some similarities between Daniel and the ultimate Daniel and what are some differences? They both were in the lion’s den sealed with a stone, We know Jesus was mocked and betrayed Daniel was betrayed. There was no formal trial for Daniel, but Jesus was judged. Daniel didn’t die at that time but Jesus did die at his ultimate trial. He then arose again. He provided payment for my sin and sits and the right hand of the Father. Daniel was the recipient of that grace not the provider of it
18. Why does Darius love Daniel? Because Daniel was light and beautiful in the way he lived drawing others to God.
19. How can we be both salt (truth) and light (love) at the same time? I’m going to bring up a raging controversy right now about Alistair Begg telling a grandmother to go to the transgender wedding of her grandchild and to take a gift. I’d like to know how in these kind of situations we can be both truth and love? And I’m going out on a limb here, but after you answer, I’d like to share my thoughts which I sent to the podcast I like The World and Everything In It. But share your thoughts first, please. I think I should go. A grandchild would already know my view but would not need my approval. My job is to love. I don’t think attending shows approval just that I love that child. I would continue to pray for them. I don’t know how to show truth in the situation. It would be their day not mine and causing division on that day doesn’t sound loving to me. It would be a show up, shut up and wear beige day for me.
20. What is your take-a-way this week and why? And do you have a God hunt? My take way is to be more of aware of where I am to be salt. I’ve been a little better this month, but that is what God wants from me, God is always so good. God set up a situation that allowed another woman and I to pray with a young woman this week who had been let go from her job at a Christian school for no particular reason. She left encouraged and hoped to join us in the future in our Tuesday morning get togethers.
I like your thoughtful response, Judy. Had to smile at the “show up, shut up, wear beige kind of day for me.” 🤣
Amen to Miriam and Dee.
Judy — you too? Makes me happy.
LIGHT
14. Read Daniel 6:16-23 and share what stands out and why?
Darius saw Daniel’s faithfulness in serving his God. In verse 16 Darius says, “…May your God, whom you serve so faithfully, rescue you…” And in verse 20 Darius says, “…Was your God, whom you serve so faithfully, able to rescue you…”
This made me pause and think, do I faithfully serve God?
15. Keller said roaring lions in Scripture represent judgment. How do you see this in Isaiah 5:25-29? Then how do you see that one day this will all be changed in Isaiah 11:6-7?
It’s speaking of God’s anger burning against His people and He will send nations to judge them and in verse 29 it says, “They will roar like lions, like the strongest lion. Growling, they will pounce on their victims and carry them off…”
Speaking of the new heaven and new earth, “the wolf and lamb will live together; the leopard will lie down with the baby goat; the calf and yearling will be safe with the lion, a child will lead them all; the cow will graze near the bear, cub and calf will lie down together; lion will eat hay like a cow.” I so look forward to that day😊
16. Listen to Keller to the end and share what stands out and why?
The two reasons Keller gives as to why this story is here…
1. The point of salvation that we’ve got waiting for us in the future. 80 year old Daniel walking with the lions, petting them, their mouths shut…we’re being told about a day that God is going to bring us.
2. The point of salvation that has already been done for us in the past. The 4th figure in the furnace and God’s angel sent to shut the lions mouth is Jesus Christ.
Being raised in a Christian home (GUBA! Dee😜) I got the Sunday School version of this story as Keller says. It’s a great story and the moral of the story was told, if you are good, if you trust God, He’ll take care of you. Keller takes it so much deeper and gives the story the understanding that is needed…the gospel message!
17. What are some similarities between Daniel and the ultimate Daniel and what are some differences?
They were both light and attractive in the way they lived.
Daniel was rescued by the ultimate Daniel, Jesus, because He took the punishment for Daniel.
18. Why does Darius love Daniel?
Daniel was light and as I said above Darius saw the faithfulness of Daniel to his God. I think of Ephesians 5:2 when I think of what Darius saw in Daniel. “Live a life filled with love, following the example of Christ. He loved us and offered Himself as a sacrifice for us, a pleasing aroma to God.”
19. How can we be both salt (truth) and light (love) at the same time? I’m going to bring up a raging controversy right now about Alistair Begg telling a grandmother to go to the transgender wedding of her grandchild and to take a gift. I’d like to know how in these kind of situations we can be both truth and love? And I’m going out on a limb here, but after you answer, I’d like to share my thoughts which I sent to the podcast I like The World and Everything In It. But share your thoughts first, please.
Fear God and fear nothing else.
I know Alistair Begg loves the Lord and he knows the truth but I think the advice he gave to this grandmother was not in line with the word of God. He is a grandfather himself and I think he let his feelings get in the way of truth. Attending this wedding would mean approving of the sin and we as Christians are to mourn sin, not celebrate it. As we learned this week from Keller’s sermon, hurt is involved in being salt and light and we don’t assimilate, play nice, be embracing, unoffensive, and loving so no one knows that we’re different.
Sharon, I believe many of were brought up the same way and churches still teach children and adults the shallow Gospel, that if you believe in and trust God and live right, things will go well for you. I’m glad we can dig deeper and glean the truths that teach and comfort us in the sure trials of life.
I respect your opinion, Sharon. It’s such a hard call. I don’t want this to divide us either. I know it’s not a real marriage, and I know sex is for a husband and wife (man and woman) only — but I don’t know what I would do. For me it would depend on what I thought might help me best win that child to the Lord — and that may vary.
We’ve been disagreeing in our church on what I think is a Romans 14 issue (predestination versus free will) but the problem with these kind of issues is that when one feels strongly they don’t think it is a Romans 14 issue. And then I don’t know what to do!
I have so much love and respect for you. I think what makes me so sad is seeing pastors put Alistair up on a screen and tear him down. So opposed to Jesus prayer in John 17 that the world would see our love and oneness so they would believe.
Dee, I so appreciate your response here and I have read and reread Romans 14…a good reminder in extending grace to other believers. Thank you 😊❤️
Sharon, I respect your comment on this issue and your tying it to this week’s lesson that being salt and light will hurt.
Thank you Judy as I respect your response as well😊
Not an easy subject but I’m so thankful that we have this “safe” place to share, agree to disagree and still have the love of Christ for one another!
Sharon, I always love and appreciate your comments and views. Iron sharpens iron.
Thank you Patti…you are such an encouragement to me and I always enjoy reading and learning from your responses!😊
11. Listen up to when Keller jokes: Be like Daniel — let’s close in prayer. (He often does that for his point is we can’t live up to the high standard, but we can be strengthened to live better by pointing to and abiding in the ultimate Daniel, the ultimate Moses, the ultimate Esther…) What stands out and why?
“The things that takes you and changes you, that pulls you out of your soul, is the moment you understand the difference between the Gospel and Religion.”
I love this because we try so hard to keep rules and do the right thing that we can become judgmental towards other, rather than focusing on Jesus and His great gift. Living well and loving others is easier for us, when we are following the example of Jesus because we desire to be more like Him. When we are following rules, we tend to focus too much on our selves and become critical of those who don’t live up to the criteria “we” follow….this is religion and not the Gospel.
12. Why is it that no matter how hard you try to love people in the world you are going to be misunderstood and hurt?
I think this (semi-accurate) quote by McLaren answers that a bit: “Our jewels are the world’s tinsel. What the world considers tinsel are our jewels.”
13. Keller says the world equates Christianity with religion rather than the gospel. Take a look at this chart and comment on two differences between religion and the gospel:
Religion= I obey therefore I am accepted. We are all creature who fail and this leaves out the desire to please God because we love Him….
Gospel= Jesus loves me and He died on the cross as a gift to me, so that when I fail, I am not rejected. I strive to please Him, not because of a rule, but out of my love for Him.
Religion= My identity and self worth are based on how on how hard I work and how moral I am. This puts me in a place of judging other and can cause an arrogant spirit.
Gospel= My identity and self worth are based on Jesus, who died for all of our sins and gave us the gift of eternal life. There is nothing I have done to deserve this gift. It is a gift of grace and it is a joy to see others find this gift. It gives me a spirit of humility and a great love for my Savior.
“When we are following rules, we tend to focus too much on our selves and become critical of those who don’t live up to the criteria “we” follow….this is religion and not the Gospel.” So true, Patti!
Amen to Miriam’s comment, Patti.
18. I’m so sorry I’m skipping to the last question but even today I was wondering what Dee would be thinking about this controversy. It’s all quite upsetting to me. I haven’t listened to Dee’s comments yet, as she instructed, so I’m in danger of stepping on toes which I hate to do. This all is so timely for we all have family and friends and neighbors and co-workers and even people attending our churches who are involved in the gay lifestyle. I have struggled with how to navigate this with a dear friend of mine whose daughter has come out as gay in her 40’s, after being married for 20 years and having 3 children. The story is very upsetting and I’ve tried to encourage her to have them over as a couple and show them love even though it makes a mother’s heart sick. When this controversy happened and Alastair preached the sermon on condemnation versus compassion, I thought it to be one of the most phenomenal messages I’ve ever heard. I will listen to it many times for I think it speaks to all of us in how we are all the elder brother , thinking we have somehow earned the favor of God as we have not stooped to this great sin. Alastair brought out how we just don’t realize how much grace God has given to us to give us the right to be His children in the first place. We are all so very unworthy. Alastair didn’t mince words and was very clear that he does not agree with the gay lifestyle and might have different advice depending on the circumstances. But this was a grandmother and a grandchild!!! I was also raised in a Fundamentalism which majored on condemnation and barely minored on grace. I truly believe that if we show love and kindness (being willing to be in an uncomfortable position simply to show love for a grandchild), that grandchild might be much more apt to listen in the future. Otherwise, you are cutting off all communication for future witness of God’s grace. I like how Alastair tied the story of the Good Samaritan to this message! The church people and religious people passed on by the wounded man, but the Samaritan came where he was and touched him and bound up his wounds and used his own donkey to bring him to an inn where he provided him sustenance at his own expense. Who is more like Jesus? I believe the answer is abundantly clear. We must go where they are and touch them. I also don’t believe that just going to a wedding makes you in agreement with it. I’ve been to several weddings out of obligation where I didn’t even think the two people should be getting married. And they were heterosexual. But sometimes we just need to be there to show that we care and will be there for them. I believe John MacArthur and others have really revealed their hearts. And so we must never worship man, but only God, and seek to love Him in spirit and in truth. I love you all even if you vehemently disagree with me.
Miriam, I think you stated this beautifully. That is of course because I agree. 🙂 I think we need to distinguish, which many are not, between the right and wrong of sex outside of the marriage of a woman and a man, which is black and white, and how we individually deal with each prodigal child. That is not black and white. What many critics on social media are failing to include is that Alistair asked the grandmother if her grandson knew where she stood on this issue, and she said yes. That is an important part that they are failing to include. I am grieved over how brothers are treating this brother who has earned the right of respect. Obviously this is a Romans 14 issue (the latter part) and we are not to judge.
Thank you for adding this, Dee. I agree with Judy, it can be a minefield. It is hard to respond to a situation I have not experienced, even though I do believe that it is a sin. It is important to know the whole story and his reasons.
Thank you for this response. I have not heard the sermon and know nothing of the controversy. I appreciate knowing his reasons in this situation. It can be a minefield that I try to stay out of yet there are times in love for friends and godson that I get drawn into it.
Oh Miriam, you have such a precious heart and I’m so glad you shared it. I don’t “vehemently “ disagree with you 😜…I just see it differently for me. I love you and thank the Lord that you are here!
4. I remember so much longing for my son to be a preacher among his people in a black church. Now he’s a dean of students in an inner city black high school. The stories he can tell! One of his students recently was arrested at school for murder. I thrill as I see how God knew just where He needed him the most.
I am so happy to hear this about your son, Missy!!
Dee, can you please tell us which podcast episode discussed this issue about Alastair Begg on this podcast? I can’t seem to find it on the program. Thank you.
Here it is, Miriam. They didn’t play my listener feedback — I think the reaction of pastors like John Macarthur and others has made them nervous. But I so love your heart, Miriam. It is a very hard position for a parent or grandparent to be in. It’s the second part of Culture Friday so scroll down.
https://wng.org/podcasts/culture-friday-tech-billionaires-know-social-media-is-harmful-1706834292
Thank you so much!
I certainly threw out a hot potato with the whole Alistair Begg controversy and I pray it doesn’t divide us. I see we have different opinions here, but I love how they are all expressed in love. I do think, though you may not agree, that though sexuality is black and white, that the best way to deal with each prodigal child may not be so clear. Whether you go to the wedding or not, I do think it vital they know of your love for them. When some dear friends’ son brought his gay partner home for Thanksgiving, when they were leaving, his partner told him, “Don’t you ever tell me your parents are bigots again — I’ve never felt so loved.” What would I do about attending a wedding? I don’t know — but I would seek the Lord with all my heart.
I think it is something good for us to think about, Dee. I remember that story about your friend’s son. I think that we do not understand the inner struggles that bring the prodigals to the places of making this choices. I don’t know what I would do, but I would seek the Lord with all my heart. Thank you for adding these thoughts, dear Dee.
Oh, so good!
2. Listen to Keller up until he gets to his second point about “hurt” and share what stands out to you and why.
I am convicted regarding an area as to why I do my best at work. How easy it is for me to bounce back and forth to, I don’t have to prove myself or expect to get a reward for working hard for I am salt. I already have a righteous name for I am clothed with the righteousness of Christ Jesus. OR, I think: I work myself to the bone here and no one seems to notice. I haven’t gotten spotlight employee for the month yet and have been nominated several times by my peers. Why don’t they choose me? lol. Sorry but when I think that I think this way it makes me laugh. In light of who I am in Christ because of Christ. Employee of the month? 🙂
3. We are to be the salt of the world, rather than separated from the world. Name ways you see this in Daniel in Daniel 6:3-4. Daniel worked out in the world in a pretty corrupt and oppressive place, and he had exceptional qualities which made him stand out among every worker there. His coworkers became jealous of him because the King was promoting him, setting him over the whole kingdom. So others who were administrators and satraps tried to find something wrong with his character and work so they could bring charges against him but they couldn’t. He was trustworthy and not negligent or corrupt.
4. Keller talked about how Christians desire to separate from the world: Christian schools, Christian retirement centers, the best neighborhoods… what are your thoughts on this? In your life, how are you moving into the places that are rotting? I do think that there are many places where we could be that we are afraid of, and we tend to congregate together more so than being around people who need Christ. I’m pretty convicted, but in a good way. I am working for a ministry right now, but I do have opportunities with people who deliver things to our office and who come in to maintain things. There is a business on our floor that is right next to us. A colleague of mine said she has a friend who’s husband works there and he noted that everyone in our office tends to be overly kind, happy, and upbeat more than any place he’s been around. He told her he thought we were odd.
5. Keller talked about how many Christians go into the world (such as New York City) in order to make a name for themselves, which was the motive of those who built the Tower of Babel. Can you think of any ways you have tried to use God for your own advancement rather than His glory? Ugh! YES. One example is when I was sharing with someone how a certain relationship I have can affect me. I shared how when I was going to my friends house to facilitate a study with non-believers, I sat in front of my friends house telling God, “I can’t do this. I don’t even want to be here. I’m supposed to have my act together and I don’t!! I’m mad, frustrated, and I want to call my friend, tell her I am sick and go home.” Help me change my attitude quickly.” Well, I don’t think God wanted me to change my attitude, I think God wanted me to be honest with everyone regarding how I was feeling for that would’ve gone a lot farther than barely hanging on the whole bible study time which unfortunately is what I did. In a way I was putting on a front that everything in my life was okay because of Christ, like because I was facilitating, I was somehow one step above them because they didn’t know Him. YUK.
6. Where was Daniel’s identity and how did he demonstrate his fearlessness of what the world might think? Daniel’s identity was in God. He prayed to God with the window open even though there was an edict that if anyone prayed to any other person than the king that they would be punished.
7. Keller said Daniel had a secular job. What was his point? Daniel went into the world but didn’t assimilate with the world. He didn’t lose his identity though he was in the world.
Oh, Rebecca! It is so good to see you here! I love your honesty and I can relate to your feeling in that Bible study. And I love (in #4.) that the husband thought your office group was odd….what is better than being “odd” 🙂 and filled with the love and joy of Jesus!
Amen, sister! Odd is good. 😉
I love to read your posts.
How I love your vulnerability, Rebecca.
Ladies, I’m looking for a famous short sermon clip that has a refrain and you can trust Him. I can’t remember the preacher and haven’t been able to google. Do any of you happen to know?
HURT: PART I.
8. Listen up to the break, when Gospel in Life gives an ad, and share what stands out and why.
9. What, according to verse 8, was the first trigger to the hostility of the officials? When you are jealous of the blessing, promotion, or success of a sister in Christ, what is your root problem?
The king was planning to promote Daniel and be head over all of his kingdom. There was jealousy and resentment. The root problem would be pride self-seeking and not thinking of the interests of others. “The more they saw Daniel was different, the more resentful they became. “
10. What did Keller say was the ultimate reason for hostility against Christians? Do you agree or not and why?
The world does not understand Christians. Christians are inexplicable, unpredictable, and arrogant. Of the 2 types of people whom he mentioned, the compassionate or the militant, I would be the former. I don’t like to muddy the waters and I need to work on being tough-skinned and not be afraid to be misunderstood. “Be understanding of other people’s misunderstandings” of my faith.
HURT: PART II.
11. Listen up to when Keller jokes: Be like Daniel — let’s close in prayer. (He often does that for his point is we can’t live up to the high standard, but we can be strengthened to live better by pointing to and abiding in the ultimate Daniel, the ultimate Moses, the ultimate Esther…) What stands out and why?
12. Why is it that no matter how hard you try to love people in the world you are going to be misunderstood and hurt?
Because we have been changed. Our values are not the world’s values. It comes with the territory of being Christian. When Jesus was here on earth, he was misunderstood but He showed us the perfect example of compassion (His healing) and standing up for the truth. ( His words to Martha and Peter and most especially to the Pharisees-you hypocrites! Wow!)
13. Keller says the world equates Christianity with religion rather than the gospel. Take a look at this chart and comment on two differences between religion and the gospel:
I obey therefore I am accepted; I am accepted therefore I obey. What relief it is to know that I do not have to work or earn my way into God’s acceptance. He has accepted me just as I am, therefore, I obey.
Motivation is based on fear and insecurity; motivation is based on grateful joy.
Because I am loved and accepted, I do not have to be fearful of punishment or insecure. My security is in Christ and no one can take that away from me. The result is a heart of gratitude and joy.
Yes, Ernema, “Because we have been changed,” and the world cannot understand. Hopefully they will look further as to WHY we are different.
Amen, Cheryl Ann!
LIGHT
14. Read Daniel 6:16-23 and share what stands out and why.
15. Keller said roaring lions in Scripture represent judgment. How do you see this in Isaiah 5:25-29? Then how do you see that one day this will all be changed in Isaiah 11:6-7?
16. Listen to Keller to the end and share what stands out and why?
Daniel is a great example to us of trust and confidence in God during horrific times. How can I imagine an 80-year-old man walking to the lion’s den? Was he bowing his head down in prayer? I believe his steadfastness throughout his life gave him the confidence (like Hananiah, Azariah, and Mishael) to face his lions. It is not a guarantee that we will always be delivered; Stephens wasn’t delivered from physical death. I think of Abraham’s faith-the Lord will provide a lamb.
One day, this will all be changed. All wrongs will be no more; Everything will be made right! What hope this gives me!
We have an ultimate Daniel in Jesus. He faced bigger lions of our sins and death so that we are never alone when we face our little lions.
18. Why does Darius love Daniel?
Because Darius saw Daniel as light and salt.
19. How can we be both salt (truth) and light (love) at the same time? I’m going to bring up a raging controversy right now about Alistair Begg telling a grandmother to go to the transgender wedding of her grandchild and to take a gift. I’d like to know how in these kind of situations we can be both truth and love? And I’m going out on a limb here, but after you answer, I’d like to share my thoughts which I sent to the podcast I like The World and Everything In It. But share your thoughts first, please.
Oh, this is a very hard question! I am not sure how I would respond if I were in this position. I think it depends on the situation. My husband is a pastor, and he would not officiate a wedding for 2 people of the same sex. Our daughter knows where we stand on this issue, and she does have gay/lesbian friends. I have met them before, and they seemed like good people.
When our daughter had an open house at her new place, a few of these friends came and we visited with them. As they started congregating as a group, their conversations were very “foreign” to me in terms of politics, shows they watched, etc. So, I am not sure what type of conversations I would have with them if they came to my house regularly. I often think of a principle on how to respond to people who think differently than me or when I am at a loss for words in Matthew 10:19, 20: But when they hand you over, do not worry about how to respond or what to say. In that hour you will be given what to say. For it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. I think fervently praying for wisdom is an important thing to do.
I was sad to hear about what other pastors are saying about Alistair Beggs. I love Alistair. We should not be quick to judge without knowing the whole scenario. Daniel did not even defend himself to the king or to his accusers. And even if we are privy to the facts, who are we to judge?
And shouldn’t these others reach out to Alistair first and engage him in a godly conversation and see where he is coming from? People are watching. We enter the enemy’s lair when we “devour” one another through our words and actions. Especially in public. Am I judging the “judges” here? I do not have the facts about this controversy.
I pray this verse for Alistair and for those who are speaking against him: no weapon forged against you shall prosper; and you will refute every tongue that accuses you. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and this is their vindication from me,” declares the LORD. Isaiah 54:17 The Lord will be his defense.
Thank you, Dee, for bringing this to our attention. Psalm 90:12 So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom, Lord.
You certainly have experienced firsthand the struggles of loving someone in that lifestyle.
Oh, dear Bing. What a sweet and tender response. As you know, I have known and worked with friends in this lifestyle. How we need to pray and love them as people created by our Father. Love so much of what you wrote.
I often think of a principle on how to respond to people who think differently than me or when I am at a loss for words in Matthew 10:19, 20: But when they hand you over, do not worry about how to respond or what to say. In that hour you will be given what to say. For it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. I think fervently praying for wisdom is an important thing to do. Psalm 90:12 So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom, Lord.
So much to ponder and pray about on this subject.
Bing, I so love your answer…such wisdom and good verses too!!
Dee, thank you for your response. I agree! I will write those verses that you shared and the quote from Francis Schaeffer.
2. Listen to Keller up until he gets to his second point about “hurt” and share what stands out to you and why. Daniel is deeply involved in Babylon and he works and prays for it’s well being, not it’s destruction.
3. We are to be the salt of the world, rather than separated from the world. Name ways you see this in Daniel in Daniel 6:3-4. Daniel is distinguished above all of the other officials. The king was ready to put him over the entire kingdom.
4. Keller talked about how Christians desire to separate from the world: Christian schools, Christian retirement centers, the best neighborhoods… what are your thoughts on this? I don’t think that Christian schools should be included in this list basically because Christian schools are sometimes your only option to getting your kids a good education. Not all school districts have quality education. (I homeschooled my kids except that my oldest attended a Christian school for his high school because he and I were butting heads and getting no where). And most people live in whatever neighborhood that they can afford. I get what he’s meaning though. In your life, how are you moving into the places that are rotting? At work, I’m surrounded by people from all walks of life.
5. Keller talked about how many Christians go into the world (such as New York City) in order to make a name for themselves, which was the motive of those who built the Tower of Babel. Can you think of any ways you have tried to use God for your own advancement rather than His glory? Not that I can think of.
6. Where was Daniel’s identity and how did he demonstrate his fearlessness of what the world might think? His identity was in God. He prayed 3 times a day in front of open windows where everyone could see.
7. Keller said Daniel had a secular job. What was his point? That just because you’re not in full time ministry or a missionary doesn’t mean that you are second class or less spiritual. You can be effective for God no matter where you live or work.
Dawn — so true — can be effective no matter where you live or work.
My son John wanted to design bridges from the time he was 5. When I asked him, as an adult, what redemptive value there was in that, he said, “I’m not sure mom, but I think you should ask God, because He made me really good at it.” : )
14. Read Daniel 6:16-23 and share what stands out and why.
”Then the king returned to his palace and spent the night fasting. He refused his usual entertainment and couldn’t sleep at all that night.“
Daniel 6:18 NLT
I think his conscious got the better of him here! He couldn’t sleep. He knew he was wrong in doing what he did. I have felt that way before. It is not a good feeling.
15. Keller said roaring lions in Scripture represent judgment. How do you see this in Isaiah 5:25-29?
Those who are of God, who don’t follow God’s law, will be struck down with lions pouncing, and no one could save them.
Then how do you see that one day this will all be changed in Isaiah 11:6-7?
All the animals will be calm and live in peace together.
16. Listen to Keller to the end and share what stands out and why?
We need to keep truth and love together.
The moral of the story is NOT that we will be courageous and then all will be okay.
Two reasons this was put in the Bible:
1 – about the future
The miracles of the Bible show us the restorations of the natural order. He uses the weak to shame the strong. God wants us to know how the world should be. Here it’s the day that the lion will live with the lamb. Calm, peaceful. This is a foretaste of the kingdom of God.
2 – about the past
Daniel says my God sent His angel. He doesn’t deliver outside the furnace or the lions den. Who is this guy? He points to someone; Jesus.
The roaring lion represents the justice of God. The real Daniel is Jesus. We can deal with the little lions (debt, loneliness, etc.) because He took the total debt for us. He went into the real lions den for me. We are innocent in God’s sight.
The name Daniel means “God is my judge.”
17. Jesus was thrown into a “den,” a stone was rolled in front of the cave just like Daniel.
18. Darius loved him. Daniel was light. He was beautiful in the way he lived. Some will be mad at us and others will be with us and love God.
Great post, Laura!
8. Listen up to the break, when Gospel in Life gives an ad, and share what stands out and why.
9. What, according to verse 8, was the first trigger to the hostility of the officials? When you are jealous of the blessing, promotion, or success of a sister in Christ, what is your root problem? They were jealous of his qualities. He wasn’t corrupt like them. My root problem when I’m jealous of a sister is an idol. My idol of approval, but also that I feel like I can’t measure up to her intellect.
10. What did Keller say was the ultimate reason for hostility against Christians? Do you agree or not and why? That we are hypocrits and the world sees us as old white men who do nothing but judge others but there is a layer underneath that. Christians convict them of their sin without trying, and they want us to be like them so that they can justify their sin-that it is okay to sin because deep down they know sin isn’t right. Mostly, it’s because they can’t believe what they see in us (Christ) and they want to pierce the light with darkness somehow to feel better about themselves.
From Rebecca:
My root problem when I’m jealous of a sister is an idol. My idol of approval, but also that I feel like I can’t measure up to her intellect.
19. How can we be both salt (truth) and light (love) at the same time? I’m going to bring up a raging controversy right now about Alistair Begg telling a grandmother to go to the transgender wedding of her grandchild and to take a gift. I’d like to know how in these kind of situations we can be both truth and love?
I am not familiar with this situation. However, I can respond if it happened to me. Firstly, I have a relationship with my grandchild. Hopefully, the grandchild knows I love him/her. Since I am an honest person, the grandchild knows my feelings on the subject of transgender-ness. I do not believe that it is an appropriate way to live, and that God made each of us just exactly as He wanted us to be. Therefore, I am unable to change how God made me (in His image). So, I cannot bless or support a “marriage” of transgenderism. Again, the grandchild would already know this about me. It doesn’t mean I don’t love them, it has NOTHING to do with that. Unfortunately, our relationship would probably be strained. Children need boundaries, and we adults need to LOVINGLY give them to the child. I think showing up to a wedding of something I do not support is hypocritical and only for show. It’s all about how it looks and not about truth. To be salt and light is to love the child and know God. You don’t have to go to a wedding to prove that.
Our son knows we love him, however he also know we do not agree with him being “gay.” He knows we will never accept that AND we will always be there for him.
I love your heart, Laura.
One of the things that I think is clear is that the motive of a heart may be pure for the one who does not go and the one who does. Only God knows.
19. How can we be both salt (truth) and light (love) at the same time? I’m going to bring up a raging controversy right now about Alistair Begg telling a grandmother to go to the transgender wedding of her grandchild and to take a gift. I’d like to know how in these kind of situations we can be both truth and love? And I’m going out on a limb here, but after you answer, I’d like to share my thoughts which I sent to the podcast I like The World and Everything In It. But share your thoughts first, please.
I think there could be implications whether we go or not so it’s a hard decision! I think we have to be careful not to judge one another’s motives or hearts and I see on this blog that we haven’t and that’s sweet! 🙂 I think everyone here who would go or won’t go are both coming from a place of deep care and love for their loved one. Most importantly, we need to trust God that He knows the true motive of our heart.
I think it’s sad that Allistair Begg was judged like this. It seems they are inferring because he encouraged her to go that he thinks gay marriage is ordained by God. I don’t think he thinks that. Maybe his motive was love. Maybe her grandson already knows she’s a Christian and isn’t for gay marriage anyway.
Maybe in our gay relative’s eyes we are either the “older brother” or we are joining the prodigal in the pig pen. I’m not sure. The only way I think it may be possible to let them know we love them without misleading them is to go to the wedding but be careful what we say? Like don’t say “congratulations” verbally or on your card, but you can say, I love you to both of them. Don’t clap after they kiss or act like you are excited for them, just be kind. That’s what I did when I attended my nieces wedding.
Chances are they already know you aren’t “for” gay marriage and if they already know that, then they’ll conclude that you are attending because you love them, and you want to continue to have a relationship with them. But, what do I know? They might think you changed your mind because you are there. I definitely don’t know hearts and maybe it could be damaging to one heart to go and not to another. Hard decision indeed!
I love all of your thoughts, Rebecca. Thank you for sharing this. I had so many of these same thoughts go through my mind!! It is a very hard decision and I think that it could be different in every situation. I love that God knows our motives and our hearts. We each have to make these kinds of decisions based on the people involved and our love for them. I don’t see a right or a wrong….and I would not make any judgment on the decision. That is not my job. God wants us to love people to Him. He is always the Judge over all of the Universe.
Rebecca — I think you so beautifully expressed each side and the importance of not judging one another on whether we go or not. I too agree about the tone on this blog being pleasing to God.