Two weeks ago we saw how Jesus both fills our tables and overturns our tables. He is a God of both love and fury.
But if you see only a God of love, you become a spoiled child.
If you see only a God of wrath, you become an abused child.
Many Americans want just a God of love, abhorring a God of wrath. John 3:16 is tattooed on arms, lit up by football billboards — but not John 3:18.
Many Croatians, who have seen atrocities done to their loved ones, want just a God of wrath, abhorring a God of love. They cry out for justice!
But God is both, and we desperately need both to live in both confidence and awe. Yesterday I had the opportunity to speak at a large funeral on the faith of a departed believer. I could see strong reactions on the faces of either joy, anger, or contemplation. One man told of overhearing a derisive comment, “She’s one of those born-agains.” So thankful I am, so thankful for this group and their prayers, and so thankful I had that chance to speak the truth — may seeds take root!
We listened to this Keller sermon in our church, and our worship leader was so excited about it, he sent out an e-mail of praise ahead of time, closing with:
THE VOICE SAYS: “BE GONE YOU WRETCH – GO RETREAT IN SHAME!
JESUS SAYS: “COME HERE MY LOVE – I HAVE BORN THE BLAME!
Here is the audio:
https://gospelinlife.com/downloads/the-god-of-love-fury-5137/
Here is the transcript:
God_of_Love_and_Fury_Transcript (1)
Sunday:
1. How has God been a God of love to you recently? A God of wrath? How has the latter shown His love as well as the former?
2. What stands out to you from the above and why?
Monday: The Text
I’m reading a book by Archibald Alexander, recommended by Keller, called Thoughts on Religious Experience. He says there are two kinds: truth that impacts the mind, like a picture on a seal, and truth that melts into our hearts and changes our lives, like the wax on a seal. In order for our lives to be impacted by Scripture we must reflect, chew on it, and ask “If I believe this, how should I then live?” Let’s endeavor to do that today — Oh help us Lord.
3. Read John 3:16-17
- Contemplate John 3:16. How did God demonstrate His love and for whom?
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How should this affect your confidence, your identity, and how you see others?
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For what purpose did God send His Son, according to verse 17?
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Challenge question: When Jesus read aloud from the scroll of Isaiah in Luke 4, after reading “to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor,” he stopped before he finished the sentence “and the day of vengeance of our God.” Why, do you think?
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As you contemplate, does the Lord show you anything new or any fresh application?
4. Read John 3:18
- Who is condemned and who is not?
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What do you think the Lord means by “condemned already,” since that person has not yet faced the final judgment? (Keller will elaborate — but give it your best shot!)
5. Read John 3:19-21
A. What is the reaction of the evil-doer to light and why?
B. What is the reaction of the lover of truth to the light and why?
C. How do you respond to conviction or even to criticism?
Tuesday: Airbrushing Out Sin and Wrath
Andrew Walls, the late Scottish theologian and researcher of churches wrote: “When the message of sin and grace and the cross becomes muted or lost, Christianity starts to transmute into a nice, safe, religion, one that’s for respectable people who try to be good. ” How I see that has happened in so many churches where I live. We need this message so it doesn’t happen to us!
Listen up to when Keller says: “But times have changed. Now we live in a completely different culture and Western culture. Whereas it once trampled on the individual, not it exalts the individual.”
6. What stands out to you from the first of Keller’s message — and why?
7. Do you think your church has kept both the message of love and wrath? Explain.
8. Keller said that so often when we get angry, it is because something has gotten in the way of what we want, of our SELF. Has that happened to you recenty? If so, share.
9. How is God’s anger different?
10. Where does Keller say we got the idea that God is a God of love? How does he support this?
Wednesday: A God of Love and Fury
Listen through Keller telling of Jesus weeping over Jerusalem ending with: “You don’t have a god here of fury or a god here of love, but a god of love and fury. Because this is a holy god.”
11. What stands out to you from this part of the message and why?
12. How does Keller refute the following? “Each man must choose his own religion — one that is right for him, but not necessarily for others.” (G00d quote by Bloom in here!)
13. Keller says, “If you find the idea of a moral God repugnant, it may be because you find a God of absolute standards repugnant.” We see the world doing this — but how about us? What standards of God might you be minimizing because they are hard?
14. What was Keller’s main point from Becky Pippert’s book: “Hope Has Its Reasons?”
15. How did Keller explain “condemned already” from verse 18?
Thursday: A God of Love and Fury
Listen up to when Keller gives us a couple of tests to see where we are.
16. What stands out to you after listening?
17. How do you see God’s love and fury balanced in John 3:16-18?
18. When you feel condemned, what truths can you speak to your soul?
19. How did John Stott contrast what man does and what Jesus did?
20. Do you feel both a great awe of God yet also a confidence in His love and forgiveness for you? Explain.
73 comments
Sunday:
1. How has God been a God of love to you recently? A God of wrath? How has the latter shown His love as well as the former?
He has sent much-needed rain to our county, including my small garden. It has been a very dry June, at least half less than what we received last June. My shoulders hurt from lugging hoses from one side of our property to the other to water the plants. The county where we used to live received the brunt of the storm. But although a tree split in our old property, the damage was minimal, and my husband was able to come up with a workable plan to clean up the debris. I thank God for this tangible evidence of His love.
I am unsure of a God of wrath, but I think of times in the Philippines when I was disobedient to the Lord, wanting to do things my way. He wrenched me out of my job, sent me to another city, and allowed a sore in my body to fester. I felt it was His discipline to me born out of love for my soul. He opened my eyes to the foolishness of my actions and wooed me back to Himself. The sore did heal with treatment. But those nights when I was in pain made me realize that God was trying to get my attention. It was a very humbling experience.
I always look back to this event in my life and couldn’t imagine what my life would have been like if it were not for His grace and His “hounding”. Somebody was praying for me, and I was made aware that God loved me so much to allow me to go down a destructive path.
2. What stands out to you from the above and why?
Dee, I am grateful for your courage to speak about the life of faith of a departed believer at the funeral service. People need to hear the gospel. I asked myself if I would be willing to receive a derisive comment about being a born-again person. Your example gives me courage as well. In times like these, people need to hear the gospel-it is the best ever good news one can hear!
Bing, I wish I could have compassion about your lack of rain but….
I have no more patience for the rain we have been getting this year. It’s crazy! We have barely seen the sun. It poured again today. Tomorrow will be the same. Not fun. 😡
Uh-oh, Laura. Rainy days in the Philippines were no fun-cloudy days and much flooding. I should have mentioned that while our community was glad to have the rain, just an hour east of us, many farmers have flattened corn because of straight winds. And rain again for you tomorrow? Not fun, indeed!
Oh boy! Deroche winds I’m guessing….will pray for the farmers 🙏.
And Dee, I am hoping that what I am doing now, would address the problem I had last week with my comments not showing up. We shall see!
I’m so glad that whatever you are doing is working because you have such a heart and are so wise. Thanks too for your encouragment~
Am glad it is working! And I do appreciate what your worship leader sent out in an email. From “wretch” to ” my love”; from “retreat in shame” to Jesus bore “the blame”. Oh, how He loves you and me!
1. How has God been a God of love to you recently? A God of wrath? How has the latter shown His love as well as the former? I tested negative for Covid and my husband and grandkids didn’t catch it from me. I don’t know where God is angry but I think He has to be angry with the abuse and harming of children. He wants no one to perish so He hasn’t destroyed us for the wickedness in this world.
2. What stands out to you from the above and why? “She’s one of those born agains”. It makes me smile. What a wonderful compliment particularly after last week s study. You are bringing God s kingdom into the present!
Judy, “You are bringing God s kingdom into the present!” Oh, how we would all do that!
Sunday:
1. How has God been a God of love to you recently?
He has shown me love through meditating on His word in Psalms 33…so many reasons to praise Him.
His word holds true and I can trust everything He does. (Vs 4)
He loves whatever is just and good; His unfailing love fills the earth. (Vs 5)
His plans stand firm forever; His intentions can never be shaken. (Vs 11)
He made our hearts, so He understands everything we do. (Vs 15)
He watches over those who fear Him, those who rely on His unfailing love. (Vs 18)
I put my hope in the Lord, He’s my help and my shield. (Vs 20)
My heart rejoices in Him, for I trust His holy name…my hope is in Him alone. (Vs 21 & 22)
A God of wrath? How has the latter shown His love as well as the former?
When I am motivated by my desires, seeking my idols for selfish reasons but I always feel His love when His Spirit whispers in my ear, making me aware of what I’m doing and my heart is broken because I know I’ve broken His with my sin.
2. What stands out to you from the above and why?
I too am so glad to be, “one of those born agains!” What a wonderful opportunity to share the gospel message at a funeral.
Sharon, I love this: I too am so glad to be, “one of those born agains!” Are you familiar with Evie’s song, Born Again?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHtY1Bb-OQU
Bing, I was not familiar with that song but listened to it on YouTube…beautiful song! Thanks for recommending it.
Sharon — love how you modeled using the psalms to pray — to praise Him!
1. How has God been a God of love to you recently? A God of wrath? How has the latter shown His love as well as the former?
Not feeling the love lately….but, my sister and I had a very nice chat last night that made me warm and fuzzy inside.
I have been trying to break a very bad habit. I don’t feel like God is near. I am drowning. I know I am supposed to give it to Him, but…so, I feel that He is teaching me a lesson.
I am supposed to lean on Him. He is reminding me of that. I suppose that is love of sorts 🤷🏻♀️.
As families, we are supposed to take care of each other. I have struggled with this because my siblings and I live far apart. We really don’t have any other family members. So, it was nice to speak to my sister about old times; to laugh and be together.
2. What stands out to you from the above and why?
Interested in why you brought up the Croatians? I’m not familiar with their history, sorry, feeling stupid right now.
BTW, I bet you don’t have a Croatian kitty…I do! Hahaha! Our son was living there a couple of years ago and found a cat. This is the son who continuously brings me cats! I have one from Detroit from him too. When he was little he found a cat outside our house (in Texas). I was at work and my mom called me and said that John had found a cat. I said, “Don’t feed it!” She said, “Too late, we already gave it milk.” I said, “Great, now we have another cat…” Our oldest named it “Aslan.” He died just a few years ago. He was at least 15 years old and was one of those orange colored Maine coon cats.
I like your cat stories, Laura, and have also been curious as to why Dee specifically spoke about the Croatians. I’m also so glad you had that sweet time of laughter and reminiscing with your sister. I pray God will help you with your habit you wish to break.
Thanks Missy!♥️
Laura — I didn’t know there were Croatian kitties!
Miroslav Volf is a Croatian who has seen enormous persecution in his country. Daughters raped. Sons murdered. They want a God of justice, where in countries that have been spared that kind of injustice want a God of grace. We have both. Our cultures impact the God we want – but He is a God for all.
Interesting story Dee, thank you for telling it!
Laura, your BTW story made me giggle. Our daughter adopted a cat and named her Ellie. She is the sweetest cat I have ever met! I am not a cat lover but am now! And surprise, surprise! Two weeks ago, she adopted another cat and named him Charlie! LOL She already has a dog named, Sam. It is quite amusing to visit her place with the three often underfoot, especially Ellie. She loooves to cuddle and purr.
I’m glad she kept hers at her house for you to visit!
Dee, I also so appreciate your boldness in testifying at the funeral recently. A few years ago, I witnessed to my foster son’s grandmother as she lay dying from liver cancer. She said she had never heard the Gospel explained to her before and accepted it willingly. At her funeral, I asked to speak and told of how she had truly accepted Christ and gave them the Gospel also. The “preacher “ then took the stand and said he had no idea that the departed one wasn’t a Christian her whole life! How sad for preachers to give false hope at funerals. Thank you for speaking the truth. Nothing else matters.
I’m discouraged lately after my foster son who lived with me for 20 years has turned from serving God in truth to going to a church where sin is condoned. He lives with his girlfriend and they are both leaders in that church. He has told me that he is learning the truth now about God and that God wants us happy, not miserable. He is focusing on the “gifts of the Spirit” and seems to ignore that God is holy. My heart has been so incredibly sad and I feel I have wasted my good years and resources and strength to love this child and invest in him. I know I only did what God asked of me when he was brought to my doorstep and dropped off. He was never truly my foster son on papers but he stayed 20 years under my roof and seemed to love God and was the joy of my heart. I’m hearing more and more that seeming true believers are now embracing sexual freedom before marriage. I just don’t get it. God seems to me to speak clearly against this all throughout the Scriptures. I wonder why God allows them to continue in their sin and continue to serve in churches while I have a broken heart while seeking to live a pure and holy life. I know I must remember Psalm 73. My heart just aches. Thank you for these messages by Keller in which he highlights the holiness of God and not only His love. We sang, “Only a Holy God,” in a new church I visited today. I love that song. I love His holiness and how He gives it to us, unworthy sinners that we are. I am a recipient of His grace as I had no holiness of my own to offer. But how can we who have received His holiness trample it under foot and crucify the Son of God afresh? I appreciate prayers as I am so heavy hearted it is affecting my parenting of my other two adopted children. Thank you for this fellowship of faithful sisters in Jesus. You all are God’s sweet gift.
Oh Miriam — how much pain from your prodigal. But let us hold to the promises that His Word does not return void, and that no one can snatch His children out of His hand. I know we often wonder if they really knew Him, and only God knows that, but I do not believe your love and words to him were in vain. But it is so hard and I pray with you for him to come to his senses. God holds these false teachers responsible. That’s a sad funeral story.
Missy, oh how my heart breaks to hear about your foster son. I agree that many seeming true believers as you have said are now embracing sexual freedom before marriage. My daughter, though not in any relationship, thinks we are not to judge others and should give others a choice to do what makes them happy. I have asked God to open her eyes to the truth and her heart to soften towards God. We live in a world where the enemy is very hard at work. I am claiming our victory in Christ and praying on behalf of our children.
Prayers for your son and girlfriend to know truth and for you for comfort and peace as you wait for the change.
Missy, I will pray for your son, and you for that matter. I understand your pain. None of my children are living their spiritual lives even though we raised them in church. It is so sad. Your thoughts on holiness remind me of that awesome R.C. Sproul book of the same topic. If you haven’t read it, you really should. I think you can get it free on the Ligonier Ministries website. Thank you for reminding me. Love you sister ♥️
Thank you so much for your love and prayers despite my whining.
Oh, dear Missy. So thankful for your witness to your foster son’s grandmother. It is amazing how many do not hear the true gospel even in church.
This is so heartbreaking about your foster son. I see so many turning from the Holy ways of God. It is amazing that so many young people do not know the scripture in their hearts and behavior. I see more liberal values in parenting, even among Christians. I join Bing in praying for our children and grandchildren to truly see God ‘s truth and have their hearts softened to His ways. I have heard that phrase “if it makes one happy and is not hurting anyone” way too often these days. Amen to Dee’s statement that God holds false teachers responsible.
3. Read John 3:16-17
Contemplate John 3:16. How did God demonstrate His love and for whom? He gave His only son for everyone.
How should this affect your confidence, your identity, and how you see others? Our identity is received by being a child of the one and only God, maker of heaven and earth. Others are created in the image of God (sometimes there s a lot of crud that has to be washed off me to find that image.)
For what purpose did God send His Son, according to verse 17? Not to judge the world but to save the world.
Challenge question: When Jesus read aloud from the scroll of Isaiah in Luke 4, after reading “to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor,” he stopped before he finished the sentence “and the day of vengeance of our God.” Why, do you think? He came to bring the new way of doing things Guessing day of vengeance is God’s day of wrath an Christ coming again,
As you contemplate, does the Lord show you anything new or any fresh application? Not to judge the world He came to redeem us if only we will accept it.
4. Read John 3:18
Who is condemned and who is not? The one who doesn’t believe in Jesus as God s one and only son.
What do you think the Lord means by “condemned already,” since that person has not yet faced the final judgment? (Keller will elaborate — but give it your best shot!) their mind is closed to the truth.
5. Read John 3:19-21
A. What is the reaction of the evil-doer to light and why? They hide from the light because they don’t want their evil deeds exposed or want their deeds called evil.
B. What is the reaction of the lover of truth to the light and why? They don’t fear the light because his conscience is clean and his actions can be seen as good
C. How do you respond to conviction or even to criticism? Depends on day, how it’s presented and even who presents it. So sometimes hurt and anger other times acceptance because I know it’s done in love to teach me.
O
You are right. The wrath is still to come.
3. Read John 3:16-17
Contemplate John 3:16. How did God demonstrate His love and for whom?
He gave His only Son for us!
How should this affect your confidence, your identity, and how you see others?
I should feel extremely special, loved, and included in a set apart family. I don’t always feel that way though. I should respect that others also are a part of this family and are also loved and special.
For what purpose did God send His Son, according to verse 17?
Not to judge, but to save us.
Challenge question: When Jesus read aloud from the scroll of Isaiah in Luke 4, after reading “to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor,” he stopped before he finished the sentence “and the day of vengeance of our God.” Why, do you think?
Maybe because He was sent to do away with all the past and proclaim the future, which was that all who believe, are saved.
As you contemplate, does the Lord show you anything new or any fresh application?
So crazy, we attended a local church where we know people and the kids have gone to school and VBS a few times. Mainly we went because our church pushes the time earlier in the summer (hahaha). Guess what the pastor preached on??? John 3:16 and 18!!! He was trying to impress on us how some people may not like what the Bible has to say, but nevertheless, it says it. I had a conversation about this with our son-in-law at lunch today. He didn’t really understand the difference between Protestants and Catholics. He also has family members who have joined the Islamic faith (they are American). I explained what we are talking about here. He said he thought it would be easy to be a Christian compared to the other denominations/faith (rules). It seemed to him you could do anything and still go to heaven. I explained that no, indeed, it is not easy. That if you accept and believe, then it makes you want to do right, not because you are told to do x, y, and z. How did I do? Was I ready as we are told to be in several places in the NT?
4. Read John 3:18
Who is condemned and who is not?
Those who do not believe are condemned, those who accept and believe are not.
What do you think the Lord means by “condemned already,” since that person has not yet faced the final judgment? (Keller will elaborate — but give it your best shot!)
You are either of the Lord or you are of the devil.
5. Read John 3:19-21
A. What is the reaction of the evil-doer to light and why?
They avoid it because it will reveal their wickedness.
B. What is the reaction of the lover of truth to the light and why?
They come to the light and others see God’s work in them.
C. How do you respond to conviction or even to criticism?
Not too keen on criticism. It hurts. I love it when I try to convince others, though and I succeed. When others agree with me makes me feel more sure of myself.
Laura — I agree with Missy. That was an Interesting conversation with your son-in-law!
Laura, I think your words to your son-in-law were spot-on about the difference in obeying a set of rules out of obligation versus a new desire implanted within the converted soul to do God’s will more than our own. How awesome that you visited another church where the pastor expounded on those same verses! I love how God does that sometimes! Must be something He’s really trying to teach us when that happens.
Love that you had this talk with your son in law, Laura, and that you emphasized that obedience is a desire of your heart when you are a Christian, not obedience by demand. A choice made in love! Love your explanation! Love that the pastor spoke on those particular verses! Only God!
6. What stands out to you from the first of Keller’s message — and why?
He speaks of hell and condemnation. Paige Brown said that (in Romans) there is NO condemnation for the believers. A bit confused here.He says God’s anger is not like our anger. His wrath is about His love for us. He has standards. Think for ourselves, not just accept the world’s view of God.
The world doesn’t like the idea of a wrathful God. But, culture loved the idea of a loving God. It came from the Bible.
7. Do you think your church has kept both the message of love and wrath? Explain.
Love, yes. I do think we address wrath but not all the time. Our pastor has preached on the “bad times” in the Bible, when God had Saul kill ALL of the Amalekites. He didn’t listen and brought home the plunder for example.
8. Keller said that so often when we get angry, it is because something has gotten in the way of what we want, of our SELF. Has that happened to you recenty? If so, share.
I got mad that family members left my bedroom a mess. It was totally because I feel like I am the only person in the family that cleans…ugh. I know this is not true.
9. How is God’s anger different?
His wrath and love go together. They are meaningless apart. He has a furious love. It is holy. “God’s wrath is really an expression of his love for his people and his creation.” His anger is an expression of His love for the truth and His standards.
10. Where does Keller say we got the idea that God is a God of love? How does he support this?
From the Bible. Turn the other cheek, love your neighbor as yourself.
Oh my! All my answers disappeared!!
1. How has God been a God of love to you recently? A God of wrath? How has the latter shown His love as well as the former? I will make it short this time….God has been very present during my meltdowns over my husband’s failing health. He has caused me to pause, by a stubbed toe or a dropped dish…when my anxiety fills my heart. Then, I have quickly turn to Him. (His loving wrath…I need to keep to His standard and not let frustration or anger control me).
2. What stands out to you from the above and why? I love that Jesus says: Come Here My love, I have born the blame. I love that your talk went well at the funeral, Dee. How very rude of people who make such comments. I am happy to be “a born again”. I so want to ask people what that means to them when they say things like that!! What does born again mean to that person? Does it mean we should be scoffed and ignored? If we are ridiculed or held in contempt, we know we are sharing a path with our Savior. I will choose His path any day.
3. Read John 3:16-17
Contemplate John 3:16. How did God demonstrate His love and for whom? God sent His only Son to save us, not by judging us, by dying on the cross for our sins. He came for those who believe in Him.
How should this affect your confidence, your identity, and how you see others? I am important to our Heavenly Father. I want to be repentant and obedient to Him out of love, not fear. He loves each of us the same and we need to know that everyone we interact with is also a child of God, with a choice to believe in Him. I need to give others a reason to believe, by seeing each person through the lens of Jesus.
For what purpose did God send His Son, according to verse 17? God sent His Son into the world to save the world, not to judge the world.
Challenge question: When Jesus read aloud from the scroll of Isaiah in Luke 4, after reading “to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor,” he stopped before he finished the sentence “and the day of vengeance of our God.” Why, do you think? Because the day of vengeance of our God will occur when Jesus returns.
As you contemplate, does the Lord show you anything new or any fresh application? In this time in history, some people are very easily put off by Christians. I think we need to treat others with love, understanding and caution. I pray that we see each other as children of God, no matter if they understand Him or not.
4. Read John 3:18
Who is condemned and who is not? The person who has rejected Christ is already judged. Those who believe in Him are not condemned.
What do you think the Lord means by “condemned already,” since that person has not yet faced the final judgment? (Keller will elaborate — but give it your best shot!) I am not sure, but it seems like those who see God as a small god, who can be manipulated and used and those who outrightly reject and scoff at Jesus and those who believe in Jesus.
5. Read John 3:19-21
A. What is the reaction of the evil-doer to light and why? This is something that is so prevalent in our world right now. The light exposes evil and those who do evil, and desire to call it good. The light of Jesus exposes the evil. Some people do not like us to shine His light openly.
(Rabbit trail) I am reminded of the movie that just came out “The Sound of Freedom” starring Jim Caviezel. He is exposing evil by shining the light on traffiking. He was the actor, who played Jesus in The Passion of the Christ, and has a great interview on encountering Jesus during the making of this film..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xxRvSp5KCg
B. What is the reaction of the lover of truth to the light and why? The lover of truth wants to see Jesus and desires to be more like Him. The light that opens my heart and eyes to things that need to be attended to in my soul, helps me to grow closer to Jesus and be more like Him. If I stay in the darkness, I am moving away from the light and from Him.
C. How do you respond to conviction or even to criticism? Criticism can bring conviction and it is a good thing. I need this daily. It can be so hard and painful to realize I have these sins cropping up, yet it is so good to see them in the light so that I can get them out of my life. It is an ongoing and life long process. Staying in His Word and sharing with other Christians helps me stay in the light.
Thanks for the movie links, Patti! I watched some of that interview and was impressed Jim. C prayed through the whole time he played Jesus, sensing the great responsibility.
-Rebecca D. 🙂
3. Read John 3:16-17
Contemplate John 3:16. How did God demonstrate His love and for whom? He gave His only Son so that we wouldn’t perish but have eternal life in Him. He did this for the world.
How should this affect your confidence, your identity, and how you see others? My confidence in that my one-ness with Christ is sealed based on what He did for me. I’m a new creature in Christ-He is my identity. The same passion He has for me, He has for others. It’s easy to think we are special to God, and we are, but so are others.
For what purpose did God send His Son, according to verse 17? To save the world, not condemn it.
Challenge question: When Jesus read aloud from the scroll of Isaiah in Luke 4, after reading “to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor,” he stopped before he finished the sentence “and the day of vengeance of our God.” Why, do you think? God through Jesus will give us His favor – this was the year of the Lord’s favor to save us from God’s vengeance. This wasn’t the year of vengeance. He didn’t come to condemn or enact vengeance on us.
As you contemplate, does the Lord show you anything new or any fresh application? It’s amazing to me that a Holy God who is fierce in wrath-like we’ve never seen before, is also fierce in His desire to save us even though we deserve His wrath because of our sin nature. God is a 100% Holy just God, and it is just that He destroys sinners because He’s Holy, and we are all sinners but because of His equally fierce Love He sent Jesus to not only save us from His wrath but TAKE ON His wrath so we wouldn’t have to. Just contemplating that makes me awestruck.
4. Read John 3:18
Who is condemned and who is not? Those who believe in him are not condemned, but those who don’t believe in Him are condemned.
What do you think the Lord means by “condemned already,” since that person has not yet faced the final judgment? (Keller will elaborate — but give it your best shot!). SO this is just a shot! So I think it’s really centered on who or what do you want or love more? Darkness or Light. Your self or Jesus. Those who don’t want Him are condemned in the now because we are all under God’s condemnation unless we give our lives to Jesus. If they want darkness more than Him then they will remain in their condemnation for they don’t want His righteousness to cover them. So we are either under condemnation or saved by Grace alone.
The evidence of those who truly know Him is the desire to bring our sin into the light to be seen plainly by God, even if at first we might want to hang onto it, eventually we are willing to yield to Him and bring it into the light.
5. Read John 3:19-21
A. What is the reaction of the evil-doer to light and why? The evil-doer literally hates the light because of his pride and that he prefers his flesh. he doesn’t want his deeds to be exposed and desires not to quit doing evil deeds because he delights in his flesh. I think that exposes the fact that He is deeply aware that God is Holy for God has put that in all hearts according to Romans 1.
B. What is the reaction of the lover of truth to the light and why? Whenever my flesh rages and I fall to it, which is daily, because of His Holy Spirit in me, I desire to be rid of it and that can only happen via bringing it into the light. confessing it to God and asking for help to turn. So really the only difference between me and unbelievers who have wicked hearts is Jesus Christ. So my reaction to the light as a lover of truth is seared into my heart by Him. So all the glory of any change in my heart regarding sin, or growth in Him goes to Him.
C. How do you respond to conviction or even to criticism? When I’m convicted my first reaction can be, yes Lord you are right, this is wrong. Sometimes it is, “but Lord, this is justified!”, then later God brings me around. These are the sins I know about..there’s plenty in there I don’t yet!
When I’m criticized I can easily get defensive internally at first, or believe it right away and beat myself up. The best times are when I ask God to help me sift it before Him to see if it’s true, and then I repent and turn. It’s a process but I want my first reaction more and more to NOT be defensive but to go straight to Jesus with it.
This is so true, Rebecca! So I think it’s really centered on who or what do you want or love more? Darkness or Light. Your self or Jesus. Those who don’t want Him are condemned in the now because we are all under God’s condemnation unless we give our lives to Jesus.
I so love your heart, Rebecca. It’s good for all of us. I need the reminder of the depth of His love for everyone.
12. How does Keller refute the following? “Each man must choose his own religion — one that is right for him, but not necessarily for others.” (G00d quote by Bloom in here!)
It’s all about the standards you have for yourself. He uses the example of the education system. We all want reforms in the system, but whose ethics should we follow? My standards might be different from yours.
13. Keller says, “If you find the idea of a moral God repugnant, it may be because you find a God of absolute standards repugnant.” We see the world doing this — but how about us? What standards of God might you be minimizing because they are hard?
Relying completely on Him for everything.
14. What was Keller’s main point from Becky Pippert’s book: “Hope Has Its Reasons?”
That she had friends who angered her because they abused their bodies. She wondered if she felt this way then how much more God would feel anger about us when we sin. Anger is not the opposite of love. Hate is the opposite of love. You can have anger and love work together.
Such a good point on how His wrath and His love are of one piece.
Listen up to when Keller says: “But times have changed. Now we live in a completely different culture and Western culture. Whereas it once trampled on the individual, not it exalts the individual.”
6. What stands out to you from the first of Keller’s message — and why? Your concept of God is fundamental to who you are. It is critical in how you live your live; how you think about yourself; how you value and regard others; how you relate to the world around you.
7. Do you think your church has kept both the message of love and wrath? Explain. Yes, our pastor feels strongly about keeping the Word of God pure and not letting our current culture change our Christian values. He will not re-interpret scripture to fit what society accepts.
8. Keller said that so often when we get angry, it is because something has gotten in the way of what we want, of our SELF. Has that happened to you recently? If so, share. I loved that Keller said that “our anger is always full of self”. This is so true…his list included: things that get in the way of my happiness, my reputation, my image, my ego…yikes!! I know that I can sometimes get drawn to anger when I have so many things I need to do just to get through the day, and then several, unexpected things, all happen at the same time….and it is usually at breakfast or dinner! Breathe, Pray, Breathe. 🙂
9. How is God’s anger different? God’s wrath is an expression of love and His love for the Truth and His standards. God’s wrath is an expression of His love for His people and His Creation; God’s love and His wrath or fury are both satisfied and meet at the Cross.
10. Where does Keller say we got the idea that God is a God of love? How does he support this? The idea of a loving, person , Shepherd, Father is only from The Bible. The ideas against slavery came from the Bible.
15. How did Keller explain “condemned already” from verse 18?
This was a difficult question to answer.
Natural consequences. God has set it up so that we cannot get away from our sin. We are haunted by it until the debt is paid. But, I thought the debt was paid, by Jesus (?). If you move against God’s law you move against yourself.
The debt was paid! But you are right, there are natural consequences.
6. What stands out to you from the first of Keller’s message — and why? God’s fury is always loving fury and his love is always furious love. Because his love and fury are not like ours. They’re holy… Our anger is completely different than God’s. God’s wrath is Holy wrought out of his love for righteousness and truth. Our anger is usually self indulgent. We didn’t get something we want, or someone hurt our pride, etc. God’s wrath is coming from his love for righteousness and truth and later Keller relays that it also comes out of his love for man so those two points stood out to me. I know His wrath is as holy and as furious as His love because He is Holy but I didn’t quite understand what His wrath looked like compared to how I am when I get angry.
7. Do you think your church has kept both the message of love and wrath? Explain. I do think my church is more balanced now. It used to have both as well. His love was emphasized but judgment was a little more so and the fury of His love wasn’t delved into as much as obedience.
8. Keller said that so often when we get angry, it is because something has gotten in the way of what we want, of our SELF. Has that happened to you recenty? If so, share. Oh my yes! Just this morning I was angry at someone I love on the way to work. There was a good reason to be frustrated but not angry. When I’m angry, very unkind and sarcastic things are in my heart and then come out of my mouth but in private. Things like, “Go ahead. We’ll see how no one is able to live up to your expectations who might at first. Just wait until your foolishness catches up with you. You’ll see I was right but you’ll have to learn the hard way like you always do, and then when you do you’ll blame someone else! “ In those moments I would love to see it happen to them so they would open their eyes and change! I never express those things to the person I’m angry with because I know I’m being angry and I wouldn’t be able to take the hurt back I’d inflict on them. So God gets to hear all of it-even my selfish thoughts and words. 🙁 But I’m so glad that God doesn’t approach me like that though I’m sure that when I get frustrated because I want someone to give me only what God can and it grows into an idol, God probably feels that way about me, but it’s HOLY, not Self indulgent.
9. How is God’s anger different? Mine is because I’m not getting what I think I deserve. His anger is because what is going on isn’t righteous and His anger is 100% Holy and fused with His Holy love. When I’m angry, none of it comes from the fury of my love, and is self centered compared to God, that is for sure!
10. Where does Keller say we got the idea that God is a God of love? How does he support this? We got the idea from Scripture.
So glad your church is getting more balanced. They are blessed to have you!
Love this, Rebecca: Our anger is completely different than God’s. God’s wrath is Holy wrought out of his love for righteousness and truth. Our anger is usually self indulgent. We didn’t get something we want, or someone hurt our pride, etc
I love that you shared the conversation that you had with yourself in the car….I do that too and I know God hears my words, even if I am just thinking them! Then, I see myself in the mirror of my own words and I don’t like what I see….After I am done venting, I realize how gracious He is to me in my “vent” and how quickly He reminds me of my own idols….I am so thankful for Him and thankful He is a Holy God.
6. What stands out to you from the first of Keller’s message — and why? He hated for people to see him angry because he was embarrassed by what he really was. It spoke to me that yes the curtain is drawn away when I get angry and people can see my lack of grace, wanting things my way, and my self absorption.
7. Do you think your church has kept both the message of love and wrath? Explain. I think so but we stay more on love and service, but they do also preach about sin and need for forgiveness.
8. Keller said that so often when we get angry, it is because something has gotten in the way of what we want, of our SELF. Has that happened to you recenty? If so, share. I was irked yesterday when driving someone honk their horn at me. I think they thought I should be going faster. Did I speed up or pull over and let them pass. No Normally I try to pull over but because they honked I became stubborn and did nothing to accommodate them. Yes I need to go back and read Unoffendable.
9. How is God’s anger different? It is holy and just
10. Where does Keller say we got the idea that God is a God of love? How does he support this? From the Bible. Because people thought if attacked they had the right to retaliate doubly and we had the right to attack and enslave weaker people.
Love your vulnerability, Judy.
I’m reading a Philip Yancey book: Vanishing Grace — on how we are Christians are coming across as so lacking in grace. It’s making me think — I recommend it.
Thank you for the recommendation, Dee. I need grace every day!
Me too Patti!
11. What stands out to you from this part of the message and why? I love that Keller points out that objective science and reason cannot give us values. It is important that we think for ourselves and do not let current culture determine our values. All values and ethics are based on religious beliefs. God is a God of Standards and absolute truth.
12. How does Keller refute the following? “Each man must choose his own religion — one that is right for him, but not necessarily for others.” (G00d quote by Bloom in here!) Bloom points out that throughout history, men always thought they were “right”. God is a God of Standard and of Absolute truth. Prevailing culture changes, God’s standard and truth are eternal and never-changing.
13. Keller says, “If you find the idea of a moral God repugnant, it may be because you find a God of absolute standards repugnant.” We see the world doing this — but how about us? What standards of God might you be minimizing because they are hard? So often the world uses the words love and tolerance to paint sin as acceptable. It can be a fine line to walk when someone we love is following the culture and turns from God, because God sees it their behavior as sin and they want to call it love. Is this airbrushing sin? I love the C.S. Lewis quote “We make people without “checks” and expect them to have virtues…….we take away absolute morality and standards and then we insist that people be moral.”
14. What was Keller’s main point from Becky Pippert’s book: “Hope Has Its Reasons?” Real love stands against the deception , the lie, the sin that destroys. God is angry because there is a cancer in His creation and that cancer is sin; that cancer is evil.
15. How did Keller explain “condemned already” from verse 18? Eternal life is a present possession. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but He who does not obey the Son, will not see life, the the wrath of God abides on him. God’s opposition to evil is both total and permanent.
Q21. What stands out to you and why? From Thursday The radiation cover (Jesus) as our tumor (sin) is dealt with. From today it’s the recognizing that I’m more sinful and wicked than I dare ever to believe and want to believe. Yet I’m more loved than I could ever dare hope. Why The purity God s love and how His wrath was satisfied on the cross. It has reminded me of some of the lyrics from song In Christ Alone
22. List the tests and share how you did with each. 1. When I see more of my sin, does it drive me closer to God. My sin doesn’t drive me away from God, but I can’t say it drives me closer unless in desperation. There is habitual sin. I m not emptied of self.but I know to bow before Him and confess what sin in me I ve seen . 2. People who understand there s no condemnation can live without fear of Judgement and they are not afraid of death and not afraid of what others think of them.I don’t know that I fear judgement but death of my life here is an unknown. As I’m getting out of season of grief I dislike thought my loved ones will grieve also there s a few momentous things I d like to be around to witness. I also still want other s approval. 3. Revelation of my sin doesn’t push me away from God but towards Him, you have triumphant courage in your life. I’m a chicken. Sometimes I do things afraid that I’ll mess up and that others will know that someone else could do it better, but I pray and try to move forward 4. Lastly you know how to deal with your conscience. I have to sometimes tell satan to get behind me so I don’t wallow in shame and self condemnation. I go to God some days and lay those situations upon Him and try to cast my cares and concerns (Gee there s been a lot of talk about self here. I’m far from perfect but I know God loves me and has accepted me as His daughter.)
Good notes, Judy.
Amen to Dee! Great notes and thoughts, Judy. I appreciate you.
My comments for this week on The God Of Love and Fury:
I just need to touch base with this group because you are part of my walk with God. You share your lives and I learn from you.
I started the week answering the first question. How God had shown his love to me but got totally stuck on the wrath question. I had a sense of where it was going but just couldn’t seem to articulate it. About Wednesday I decided I needed to get into the sermon. I read about half of it and then read the comments that had been posted. I started to try and respond but got derailed a second time. I ended up reading the sermon twice this week.
There is such powerful truth in the teaching but it takes some real meditation to grasp it. I highlighted many comments.
My week has been full for a whole variety of reasons and there has been an element of darkness to it. Not in my own personal life but around me so that I have felt the heaviness of others. Yet God through his Word has kept his light shining on and through each situation. I thank Him for that. The enemy would crush us if he could. But for God. But for Jesus. But for the Cross!!
Keller said it this way.
“The real God can only be understood if you understand the cross. Because on the cross, the wrath of God and the love of God meet and are satisfied.”
My takeaway this week would be this section of comment by Keller.
“God is not just a God of love or just a God of wrath, but he is the God of both. And your concept of God is so fundamental to who you are. If you do see only a loving God who never says no, or if you only see a harsh, angry God who never says yes. Not only is that a distortion of reality, but then that belief will distort your life in one way or the other. You are deeply and profoundly affected by your view of God and your understanding of God.”
One of the things that I started to read this week is a book that just came out on Amazon July 4th. It is called “God’s Not Like That: Redeeming Inherited Beliefs and Finding The Father.” By Bryan Clark. Bryan is someone we have known personally since he was a boy and he has been a good mentor to our son who is a pastor. That last phrase of that comment above by Keller says “You are deeply and profoundly affected by your view of God and your understanding of God.”
This new book by Bryan is based on the premise your family of origin forms your view and understanding of God which Keller just said is deeply important.
Bryan says in his introduction
“This book is not about how to accomplish the purpose of the family. It’s not really a family book at all. It’s a struggling-Christian book. It’s about assessing your experiences in your family of origin and what those experiences might have taught you about God.”
I’m just to the 2nd chapter but I have a feeling this is a book I will be recommending a lot. I’m going to take my time with it as he recommends.
Dee, Also I just want to say how much I appreciate all the work you go to to prepare the study on this blog. These sermons by Keller are pure gold.
Thanks, Bev. So thankful for Keller!
Amen to you and Dee. These sermons by Keller are pure gold! Thank you for the recommendation of Bryan’s book, Bev.
A couple more thots added after reading posts this afternoon.
In the transcripts of the sermons sometimes words are incorrectly assigned because they sound similar. This one made me smile. It was when it interpreted the
C. S. Lewis quote as saying “we make people without “checks”…
The actual quote comes from his book “The Abolition Of Man” and says
“We make men without chests and expect from them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst.” So it’s chests not checks. 😊
The other comment is that I saw where Patti mentioned the movie “The Sound Of Freedom”. Just two nights ago my husband and I attended the movie with some good friends. It is a very heavy story based on the true story of a US Agent who worked to capture and prosecute pedophiles and sex traffickers then went on to rescue children used as slaves in the sex slave industry. Hence some of the darkness I experienced this week. But I need to let you know the movie is actually well done. I just wasn’t sure I could go and watch it. It was hard because it is an intense story but I’m glad I did and I would recommend people to go see it. There is nothing gratuitous and not excessive violence just the reality of a terrible blight on our society. I cried emotional tears for certain characters and situations in the movie. My husband came out of it and said “I feel speechless”. The reality is hard hitting that the USA is the most prevalent consumer of the filth of pornography and user of child sex slavery.
This has played large in my mind as I consider the love of God and the fury of God. It’s just plain heavy to think about.
I do think we are called to watch or read about the darkness in the world to build compassion in our hearts. Good to get your thoughts on the movie — thank you!
Thank you for looking up that quote about “chests” and “checks”, Bev. I listened to that part of the sermon three or four times, trying to decipher what word he was using! 🙂 I so appreciate you!
I feel the same way about “The Sound of Freedom”. I am unable to go to it in the theatre, but I am going to order the dvd as soon as it is available. It is so hard to watch these dark films, I literally get physically ill sometimes. I agree that we really need to see it to be aware of what is happening before our eyes, even at events that seem innocent on the surface. It is a huge problem and it is very heavy to think about.
On a side note, I am praying for your dear mom and wondered how she is doing?
Bev, thanks for this review. My husband and I are going tomorrow. I am afraid 😔. I can’t believe the evil in our world these days.
17. How do you see God’s love and fury balanced in John 3:16-18?
He loves and gives His Son for us yet also stands firm in His standard of us believing and accepting of Him.
18. When you feel condemned, what truths can you speak to your soul?
God loves me so much that He gave Jesus to take my sin. When I obey God’s law, I am the best I can be in my life.
19. How did John Stott contrast what man does and what Jesus did?
We switch places. It reminds me of Mike Reeves, who said, He traded His crown for our crown of thorns. That’s the cross.
20. Do you feel both a great awe of God yet also a confidence in His love and forgiveness for you? Explain.
I’m definitely in awe of God. I do think He loves and forgives me. It’s the cross! It’s where the love and fury come together. He is the Father, who presses us but not to our demise. That’s because He loves us. It’s how fathers need to discipline their children; with love.
21. What stands out to you and why?
I always loved this Keller quote, “ Unless you believe that you are more wicked and more evil than you ever dared believe. But you’re more accepted and loved than you ever dared hope because God’s wrath and his love have come together and kissed on the cross and both been satisfied.”
22. List the tests and share how you did with each.
1) You sin and run to God. I do this.
2) You are not afraid of any judgment (death, others, the future). I am not afraid (anymore).
3) You are bold. Sometimes, but more often than I used to be years ago.
4) You have a clean conscious. You know that Jesus is the record; even if you had t done the bad deed, He still took the blame. Thank You Jesus! I’m still working on this 😉.
LOve you passed the tests!
23. What is your take-a-way and why? I don’t like the word fury or wrath when I think about God because of the OT parts where the Israelites were told to destroy all the people and animals when they captured some cities. This week has given me the understanding of how much God grieved when He has had to do the hard thing and send His Son. Jesus grieving for Jerusalem as He faced his own death to pay for sin and to satisfy the wrath of a just God. So it’s good for me to understand that the love and fury are linked so the tumor of sin can be irradiated
Wonderful, Judy!
My take-away:
I never know how to explain what appears to be anger to non-believers about God. This sermon absolutely straightened me out about His love and fury! I can now formulate a statement about this and feel more confident about myself when speaking to others.
Laura, same here. The examples that Tim Keller gave here on God of love and fury have struck my heart. I often don’t know how to bring about his fury although, in our younger years when we were with a Christian organization in the Philippines, that was a very important topic to discuss with those we witnessed to and mentored later. I feel like both my husband, and I have been investing our time in encouraging and building up our church, and sharing this dual character of God one on one has taken less of a priority. I think of my daughter and other loved ones who are in the category (not judging but observing) of what Tim calls “airbrushing sin and wrath.” I need to pray about this and how I can be more effective in sharing truth in love.
Dee, as some have said here, these sermons are golden. My walk with Jesus has become closer, sweeter, and more confident because of the time spent here rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15) and learning from one another, from your questions, and from the sermons.
I think we are all gaining ways to talk more clearly to unbelievers. Thanks be to God — and Keller!
Amen to all of you. Amen to Dee on Thanks be to God and Tim Keller.