Welcome to 2016 and to a book that can change your life!
Do you realize how different your life would be if you realized, to your core,
how deeply loved you are?
That, indeed, Jesus sees you as beautiful?
Up until the 1800’s, The Song of Songs
was the most preached on book in the Old Testament.
It was a pearl to be treasured.
Nothing, pastors thought, was more important for his flock’s walk
than seeing the depth of Christ’s love for them.
Seeing that love would help them face trial and temptation with victory.
But in time, the primary focus of the Song shifted from Christ to marriage, and preachers didn’t feel it was as important. Some, in fact, belittled its value. When the value of the Song was questioned by the interviewer who interviewed C. S. Lewis in his final interview, C. S. Lewis responded strongly.
The great saints and mystics of the church have felt just the opposite about it.They have found tremendous spiritual truth in the ‘Song of Solomon.’ … what is meat for a grown person might be unsuited to the palate of a child.[1]
How do you know if you are ready for this study? I don’t think Lewis would say that the length of time you have been a Christian is what matters, but rather, the depth of your hunger. Often new Christians, and I have seen this in prison, put those who have been Christians many years to shame with their hunger. So if you are hungry to know more of the Lord, and willing to do homework, come!
The Song is definitely a book that has been trampled upon. Dr. Michael Reeves, from whom you will watch a short video this week, says there are errors on both sides, when people fail to see both levels. Some who see only marriage have turned it into soft porn, and some who see only Christ have gone to great lengths, to, for example, spiritualize her breasts to mean the Old and New Testaments. This week we will look at the genre of the Song, and why good hermeneutics demands we see both levels.
It is my view that earthly marriage is there, but it is a pointer, as Ephesians tells us, to Christ and his Bride. Every other book is about God and His people, every other book has Christ hidden or revealed, and I cannot see why The Song would be an exception
The language of the Song is so private and yet that is also the key to its power. I believe you will be greatly refreshed by seeing how a beautiful earthly marriage can illuminate Christ’s love for you and His desire for your responsive love for Him.
We put our toes into the water of this book in 2013. Many of you may have been with us, and so some of this, especially initially, will be review, and I’m asking you to mentor our newcomers to The Song, for it is a challenging book. Here were a few of the responses from our first time around.
Does Jesus love me? I have been contemplating this question as my “sorrows like sea billows roll,” and I have come to see that this question is KEY. Do I believe that He loves me, desires me, even when suffering does not make sense and every alternative is dark? The Song of Songs keeps telling me He does.
Diane from Canada
A veil has been lifted and made me see God’s love in a whole new light. . . . He calls me to come away with Him, to come away from idols, from the safety blankets I have clung to for so long.
Staci from the Netherlands
I had previously thought of Song of Songs as being primarily about marriage, a book reflecting the beauty of romantic love. However, there’s so much I was missing. After all, the Bible from beginning to end is a cohesive story of God’s love for His people. So of course the Song should contain whispers of Christ. From that viewpoint, I can see Him pursuing me, rescuing me from my own sense of inadequacy and failure, delighting in me, and declaring His love for me. It is amazing to think of myself as His beloved, and the Song sings it loud and clear.
Jon from South Carolina
We also, during our first time around, made this Song our theme song, a song from Jesus Culture called “Song of Solomon.” Here is the official You-Tube version that has come out since 2013.
Monday-Wednesday: Approaching Poetry
A basic principle of good hermeneutics is to interpret according to the genre. For example, some would say that the Bible supports polygamy, for there are examples (including Solomon) of polygamy practiced. The error is that they fail to see these are historical accounts rather than didactic commands. God does not command polygamy but his plan instead for marriage, repeatedly stated, is one man and one woman for life. The fact that the Bible historically records sin such as polygamy, rape, murder, etc. is not a license to do those things.
It is also vital to know that prose should be interpreted differently than poetry.
2. Let’s look at the same truth expressed first in prose and then in poetry. What does it say and what does it mean in each case?
A. 1 Peter 5:7
B. Psalm 91:4
3. With the above example in mind, answer this:
A. What advantage does each genre have (prose and poetry)?
B. How could Psalm 91:4 be mis-interpreted if you didn’t see it as poetry?
Those who wish to discredit the Bible will often take a poetic passage and claim it is not scientific. Tim Keller has some wonderful sermons in which he says Genesis 1 is often mis-interpreted because people fail to realize it is poetry. They think it is teaching “how” the world was made rather than “why” it was made. Likewise, I remember a family member I love being misled by her minister who said the Bible couldn’t be trusted because it said the world was flat. He quoted Job 28:24: “God’s eyes run to the ends of the earth.” He was interpreting poetry as prose, perhaps to advance his own sinful agenda.
The genre of The Song of Songs is explained immediately in Song of Songs 1:1. It is a song! And a single song, though some have said it is many songs strung together. Songs, by their very definition, are poetry set to music.
4. Since poetry is multi-layered, and since the Song is poetry, what does that teach you about how to interpret it correctly?
I’d like your input on this. I plan to use this excerpt from John Donne’s on a preface page to my upcoming book:
Except you enthrall me, never shall be free,
Nor ever chaste, except you ravish me.
John Donne
Holy Sonnets:
“Batter my Heart, Three-Personed God”
5. What do you think Donne is communicating with this? What is the first level and what is the second?
6. Are you shocked that Donne would ask God to “ravish” him? What do you think he means and how might this correspond to the Song?
7. One of the strengths of poetry is its word pictures, for word pictures are able to slip into the heart, helping us feel, and love the Lord with all our heart, or fear HIm, or trust Him. They also tend to be memorable. Can you think of a word picture from Scripture that has impacted you?
8. Let’s put our toe into the water with the opening of the 1st chapter, realizing we will plunge in fully after these intro weeks. But, see if you can see the multilayers in Song of Songs 1:1-4.
A. Describe the feelings this peasant woman has for this earthly king.
B. We understand earthly love – but what might this be communicating
concerning what God longs for from us, His Bride?
C. How would Matt. 22:36-37 support this?
D. Challenge question: If the Song were only about earthly marriage, what
problems might occur in interpreting, for example, verse 3?
9. Take a verse or passage from this week and pray it into your life.
Thursday-Friday: 15 minute Video
10. Watch and share notes and comments:
Saturday:
11. What is your take-a-way and why?
307 comments
1. What stands out to you from the above and why? “Do you realize how different your life would be if you realized, to your core, how deeply loved you are?”
Yes. My daily prayer, for me and my children, Lord, that we would understand your love so that it would change our hearts…. The fact is He does love us, deeply, madly, truly, relentlessly…. I just lack the understanding of it. This question causes me to pause and give thanks for that deep love despite me…. While we were still sinners He died for us…. It is by the GIFT of grace inspired by His love that we are loved and saved.
Diane’s quote, too, resonates with me, “Does Jesus love me? …. Do I believe that He loves me, desires me….The Sing of Songs keeps telling me that He does.” Amen. The truth does not change, He loves me, what must be changed by His Spirit is my understanding of it and my trust in it.
What stood out to you and why?
I have not been a part of the first go around of the Songs. One part of me wished I was but for the most part I am glad I wasn’t. I know it was His plan for me to participate this time around. The studies this past year and your friendships have been orchestrated to soften my heart towards a different look at the Song as it mostly have been a book of romantic love for me. I have read through it quickly many times through the years with some discomfort and awkwardness, I confess.
Yet your intro to this, Dee has whet my appetite for Jesus more, the lover of my soul. I have not heard the full version of the song by Jesus Culture until this morning. Listening to it closely has given me an appreciation for what I have missed. “Come running…. till it’s light. ” Till I see the truth in the light, till the darkness of my soul goes away freed by your light, Lord. ( what a correlation to John 1!)
I love the three quotes from Diane, Staci and Jon. Staci’s especially as I think of the “veil being lifted”.
Thank you, Dee. I am excited to participate!
What stands out to you from the above and why?
Do you realize how different your life would be if you realized, to your core, how deeply loved you are?
That question went right to my heart, because I can talk about God’s love, but my heart does not really know it. Much of the pain in my life now is because I lost the love of my life 6 years ago. There are, of course, practical difficulties involved in being a single, working Mum even now the kids are adult and living at home, and that does not change. But the greatest pain is the ongoing emotional pain, the stigma of being single, being a widow in a world of couples. Even church seems so couple and family oriented. But what if the ‘love of my life’ was not my husband, but God? It’s still painful to grieve a husband, but if I realised to my core how deeply loved I am, I’m sure the grief would be transformed.
Kerryn love your ponderings here. I am sorry for your pain in the loss Your husband. Thank you for sharing this post.
I hear such pain expressed here, Kerryn. May God meet you in your pain and comfort and transform your honest grief into something only He can heal and transform.
Kerryn, your post touched me deeply. I hear the grief and sorrow you express and you must miss your husband terribly. I can relate, too, to this: “I can talk about God’s love, but my heart does not really know it.” Praying that you will discover the depth of His love for you through The Song.
Kerryn – I am always so happy to see a post from you….you remind me of Renee, in that as I go to read what you have written, I KNOW I will be challenged! You so nailed the heart of the matter with your question: “But what if the ‘love of my life’ was not my husband, but God?”. My eyes were opened some years ago to that need in my own life….and ever since, life has been, well, “different” – one of my deepest regrets in my life is that I spent so many, many years with my marraige as an IDOL of my heart. Since Jesus began (and it is ongoing, for sure….I’m a slow learner!) to tenderly show me how I had locked out so much love and grace that He longed to pour into me because I stubbornly kept my marraige on the throne of my life…..His peace has simply WASHED over me!
In this moment I am praying for you Kerryn…..in line with the first sentence you wrote, I am praying that this study will carry you into that place of “heart knowing” His deep, deep love for you. Just as we ALL need what the Song will reveal to us about our pockets of stubborn resistance to His truly irresistible love!! 🙂 Amen….may it be so Lord Jesus.
1. What stands out to you from the above and why? First: that the Song was the most frequently preached OT book prior to 1800. I have never heard that and it amazes me. I don’t think I can remember more than once hearing it from the pulpit. In the ’70’s, I purchased two books about the Song: Glickman’s ‘A Song for Lovers’ and Watchman Nee’s ‘Song of Songs’. I never read through either of them fully, but they had two different views. When I first came on the blog in early 2014, there were SO many references to the Song study you had done, that I got very interested. I thumbed through those two books (which I still have). I look forward to studying the Song with you.
Second: The video. I remember this posted before too, in reference to the Song, but maybe I didn’t stop and let the video soak in with it the other time I listened. The photography enhances the words SO beautifully. The looming, enveloping dark clouds speak volumes about what the words portray. For it is in those times of darkness, sorrow, sadness, confusion that we can feel His coming to us most clearly. And to think on His coming to us as One running to make sure we feel loved and cared for. That word picture has such impact. Think of a child who has fallen and is crying. A parent, a caregiver, an older sibling RUNS to her side, with a pounding heart and a singular purpose; to make the child know that she is loved, to hold her until she stops crying.
1. What stands out and why?
The song by Martin Smith. Soaked it up. Thank you, Dee.
1. What stands out and why?
Donne’s sonnet is one that stood out to me when I studied it at a secular university many (dare I say 40) years ago as a young adult. Donne speaks to my heart and has a depth of perceptive emotional understanding of God that I long for. I will try to participate as much as I can. I feel the Song of Songs study is a key one in understanding the depths of our Lord’s love for us.
what stood out to me? That it is a pearl to be treasured, revealing the depths of Christ’s love for me. I want more of him, I want to understand how the poetry reveals this.
The world often damages, as a young woman, seeing the ideal as a cherished symbol, usually in a romantic setting. If life does not deliver in this way, there is a feeling of failure somehow. I know that Christ cherishes me, but I need to be set free from this worldly picture. I want to come running to him and sing his praises for he is the giver of all good things.
1. What stands out to you from the above and why?
The video of the Song of Solomon by Martin Smith–our theme song from the last time around with the Song of Songs! Yes, I soaked it up as Nila said, but I also sang out loud while sitting in front of my computer. Hearing it again helped me remember the change that was made in me. Prior to that study, I strictly viewed SOS as a marriage manual, and the idea of Christ being my lover sounded pretty off-the-wall at first (almost sacreligious). However, during the study I was totally converted over. Hearing our theme song again brought back the rush of adrenaline as I realized how deeply I am loved by Jesus! I am so glad that we are studying the Song of Songs again!
Deanna – your enthusiasm and passion for Christ in the Song is contagious!! Love it!! I love your modeling of an older woman with a teachable heart! And by the way…..a few weeks ago I was looking back at Dee’s blog – way back in 2009 – and I saw you there…right?? Are you possibly the longest running blog contributor?? If so, that deserves a little shout out!! 🙂
I loved this post from the very beginning! So thankful and excited to be led through the Song, centered on Christ, grounded in truth. Dee’s teaching is one of many ways He reminds me that He sees me and has provided the truth of His Word for me, to draw me in, closer to Himself.
I was just reading Tony Reinke’s “The Joy Project”, and in reference to Song of Songs 1:4: “Draw me after you; let us run” ,he says ” We know that God must lure us to himself, but we are deaf to his wooing words. First, he must break the siren song of pride and despair in our lives.”
It humbles and amazes me how often, if we listen and open our eyes to it, He does truly call us beautiful. I can be so weighted down by my sin that required His death that I too easily forget His love for me that willed Him to. I long to know Him more, love Him more, and let His love change me more, this year. Welcoming the Song into my heart!
Lizzy, what a beautiful thought, to remember that His love willed Him to sacrifice for us. Thank you!
Lizzy, that quote by Tony Reinke … wow … “we are deaf … he must break the siren song of pride and despair in our lives!” So true! So convicting! Oh, if I just was free to let Him love me and for me to love Him as I ought!
I was really eager to get into this study, and have already gone to the end. So my take away is that I wNt to desire Christ more than food. To recognize Him as the greatest benefit of Christianity and never stoop to using Him. Dee, words cannot say how much I am looking forward to the coming weeks!
So excited to start Dee! I need to know His love for me; nothing can fulfill me here on earth.
1. What stands out to you from the above and why?
Of course, “Our song!” Jesus Culture is the best with this Song of Solomon piece!
Oh yeah… This all reminds me of the book called “hinds feet on high places” (I think?). Excellent read! So meaningful to me.
“our song”…:) So cute, Laura (and so true)
1. What stands out to you from the above and why?
I love that song…it has stayed with me, coming to mind during really hard moments, since you shared it with us before. As we’ve learned, when it is set to music the truth sinks in more easily and deeply.
As I read the intro I thought about how the longer we walk with Christ the more we more we learn to mistrust our preconceptions, to trust in the Lord and lean not on our own understanding. To approach scripture expecting it to be alive and to offer more, more than we thought possible from something we’ve looked at before.
I look forward to being stretched. If I am honest, Song of Songs makes me a bit uncomfortable, but I know that I really do want to grasp how high and wide and deep the love of Christ is for me, I want that truth to change me, so that I overflow with hope.
I want to digest grown people food!
These words…Do you realize how different your life would be if you realized, to your core, how deeply loved you are? That indeed, Jesus sees you as beautiful….
This is what so many people need to hear today and know in their gut! I am in a season of weeping over the lack of people’s ability to see this truth…I have been learning biblical counseling through CCEF and in my process of counseling others I see this unbelief…If everyone could see this truth and believe, embrace it oh how it would change them! It changed me after I did Falling in Love with Jesus and I am forever grateful for you Dee! I am excited to look deeper into this book with you all in this season! I am so excited I have a break in school to participate this go around…
Welcome, Angela — so glad to see you here again. I just got the nicest note from a woman in your church that I met when I was with you.
Oh that is so great! Honestly, all of us who have met you or read your books have been immensely blessed! God has used you in such a mighty way and still is. Thankful you got that encouragement. 🙂
Angela I too weep for others to see how much they are loved. My prayer is that getting to know this truth even more in my own life will give me a greater ability to love others as He loves me.
Ditto too how Dee has touched our lives thru the work the Lord is doing thru her.
Angela – Falling In Love with Jesus was life changing for me as well ! It was a tremendous group experience with my women’s Bible Study several years ago.
With two children getting married this summer I have a front seat view of early love, the kind that is so full of excitement and joy and anticipation and newness. And being in the middle years of a marriage that was so very hard for so many years…one that was never very romantic but very much a “you love Jesus, I love Jesus…your lonely, om lonely so lets get married and then we will have someone to love us” NOT A GOOD IDEA! I am so happy that both my children are marrying people that they were best friends with for many years before it became romantic. I have to admit that I am often jealous of their great choices in partners.
BUT I look at what Paul and I have now and it is very much like my walk with Jesus. Jesus has been by my side through it all and I have gotten comfortable in HIS love. I am excited to fall back in passionate love with HIM as I did with my husband over the last couple years. There is a place for both of course. Our passion for JESUS can energize us and give us vision to serve in ways that are beyond our own strength…BUT our comfort in this forever love gets us through the hardships and “normalness” in life.
2. Let’s look at the same truth expressed first in prose and then in poetry. What does it say and what does it mean in each case?
A. 1 Peter 5:7
“Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.”
1 Peter 5:7 NIV
No need for worry, God’s got this!
B. Psalm 91:4
“He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.”
Psalm 91:4 NIV
He will protect you.
I am so excited for this study! Oh, to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge! (ironic statement). I was struck by something incredible as I read my sisters’ comments above. As they wrote of their love for Christ and desire to know His love even more, I found myself weeping with joy and a similar longing. And then it hit me! If my sisters were talking about my earthly husband, I would feel great jealousy, anger, and resentment that they were seeking to love my earthly husband. How astoundingly and awe-inspiring different, that “all of the virgins love thee!” I can actually be spurred on to greater love for this heavenly Lover when I see how much my sisters love Him also! Now that is only of God, and it’s too beautiful for words!!!
Love this Miriam!
I love this too Miriam 🙂
3. With the above example in mind, answer this:
A. What advantage does each genre have (prose and poetry)?
Each can speak to someone…..if I don’t understand poetry, I can still get the message (if I actually read the bible) in another form. Prose is more plain spoken. I like that. Poetry is harder; I have to sort it out before I can understand. However, that makes me really pick apart the verses and I probably understand them better than just reading the prose without much thought.
B. How could Psalm 91:4 be mis-interpreted if you didn’t see it as poetry?
If I am truly not a poetry person, I might think the poet was referring to a bird! I wouldn’t understand that this is an analogy…..God is being described as a bird who will cover us and protect us.
Sorry to pose a question right out of the starting gates, but I’m not clear about the first paragraph under Mon-Wed. I understand that many things such as polygamy are historical accounts and not God’s commands and that His plan is one man/one woman but I am confused about people like King Solomon, King David? (and many others) who had lots of wives and concubines. Wasn’t that pretty much the norm? I thought somehow, (though I have never understood why) this was acceptable in the OT. Yet, not acceptable in the NT. (per Paul’s writings) It seems like a lot of sin for which so many ‘ OT heroes of the faith’ were not held accountable. What am I missing???
Hmmm. Maybe I just found some answers to my own question. I probably should have just googled first.
http://www.gotquestions.org/polygamy.html
Thank you for this 😉
Nice to see you back, Staci! I have thought about you during the time I didn’t see you here.
Thank you Wanda I found this very helpful.
Polygamy may have been the norm for Kings and childless couples — but nowhere is it approved. In fact God told Solomon not to do it. We see the havoc with it all the way through. Five times we are told one man and one woman for life: leaving, cleaving, one flesh.
I’d love other thoughts to Wanda’s good questions.
So true about the havoc, Dee. I also think that polygamy is one of those questions that God may have dealt with in ways we have not seen written down. Like, even though many heroes of the faith were polygamists and it doesn’t seem to us, that they were chastised for it; who knows what may have happened that wasn’t recorded? Sometimes I have to think this is the case, when I read of other sins :especially all the sexual sin in the OT. There are certain verses that always make me cringe when God’s people do not seem to be punished for their evil deeds. But then I think about how I don’t see what God sees.
After reading Wandas link, in reading what do you had to say, I’m very confused now. I can see where the person answering the questions cites his sources in the Bible, and his reason sound plausible for polygamy; women who needed help surviving, and populating the world quickly seem valid reasons. Is this link not a good source and how do we know?
I’ll see what others think, but I know my very conservative former pastor suggested this site for answers he trusted. I didn’t really look at any others as I felt this gave me good clarity. I will look again, but what I think is meant, is that these are reasons why it was practiced without the immediate ‘gasps and outrage’. (thus acceptable to many) but it doesn’t mean it was God’s best plan. I think those reasons listed simply explain why polygamy was so widely practiced. I think we can make similar statements about many sins. For example: why did large land owners in the USA have African slaves? and why has racial segregation been encouraged and approved by churches? These are also sin but historically, society found utilitarian reasons why it is acceptable and it has been even encouraged by Christians.
Laura: You can also read the Statement of Faith on the blog site.
Oh Im so excited you are doing this study again!!! Im going to try my best to keep up and do this again. I feel I can take much more away too. What stood out to me was your beautiful photo with Song of Songs 4:7 “You are altogether beautiful my darling;there is no flaw in you.” “my darling…” its God talking to us, calling us his darling…when I typed this from memory, i first typed ‘you are altogether beautiful darling’. I went back and discovered I didn’t even see how God had said MY DARLING…he purposely and lovingly calls us his own. Also HE sees NO flaws in us, His love is made perfect even in our weaknesses….Im reminded of that over and over. Of course Martin Smith’s song Song of Solomon always touches my heart. Looking forward to this study again. May God speak to each and everyone of us even more so.
YAY. I prayed you’d come back, Staci!
Staci, I can’t ever hear Martin Smith’s song without thinking about you, because it was you who first brought it to us!
4. Since poetry is multi-layered, and since the Song is poetry, what does that teach you about how to interpret it correctly?
I think you have to be willing to dig deep to understand poetry; through the layers. The surface won’t give you the true meaning, or might be misleading at first glance.
1. What stands out to you from the above and why?
The Jesus Culture Song of Solomon…I love it, it touches my heart in reminding me of the Lord’s pursuing me as His beloved. (Staci, so good to see you…weren’t you the one that introduced us to this wonderful song?…many, MANY thanks!)
Welcome to new gals or those I haven’t met due to a short absence from the blog.
And we’re off…excitement!
2. A. 1 Peter 5:7
The Lord is telling us to bring our anxieties, worries, concerns, etc. to Him; He cares for us. We can leave our anxieties with Him, in His care, and be released by His provision. B. Psalm 91:4
The Lord is our protector, we have nothing to fear…in His truth we are secure.
I’m in my Hampton Inn this morning before I get back on the road, stopping to see Sally on my way back home. I’m gratified at the enthusiastic response, the good questions, Wanda’s google on polygamy, some familiar returning faces and some new faces!
3. A. What advantage does each genre have (prose and poetry)?
Different people best interpret text differently…prose is more direct, easily understood; poetry provides “color,” text in a more artsy manner.
B. How could Psalm 91:4 be mis-interpreted if you didn’t see it as poetry?
The Lord has feathers? wings?…is He a big bird? How do I get under His wing?…how can I trust a bird? Truth as a shield and buckler?…is the Lord’s truth all about warfare?
There could be much confusion if poetry is literally interpreted. (Dee, such a good reminder for me…thank you.)
2. Let’s look at the same truth expressed first in prose and then in poetry. What does it say and what does it mean in each case?
A. 1 Peter 5:7: cast all your anxieties on Him because He cares for you – means what it says – He cares for us so we can trust Him to cast all our worry-inducing situations on Him.
B. Psalm 91:4: He will cover you with His pinions (feathers) and you will find refuge under His wing. His faithfulness is a shield and buckler (Small shield). Just as a mother bird takes in her chics to protect them from elements and predators under her wing, so, too, God prot cuts us according to His will. Because He is faithful He is a shield. If He was unfaithful we would not be able to trust him.
3. With the above example in mind, answer this:
A. What advantage does each genre have (prose and poetry)?
Poetry is good because it is beauty in words, beauty softens ours hearts and paints a picture which is worth a thousand words so you end up communicating not only more but each person will picture it in their own context and it takes on the “secret language of their own heart” (Eric Metaxas coined that phrase). It is truth that can be seen through the lens of our lives to make more sense and to speak more deeply to our hearts.
Prose is good because if everything had to be interpreted like poetry we would have no absolute truths. Our deceitful hearts need melting, yes, but they also need commands, boundaries, concrete reminders of truth.
B. How could Psalm 91:4 be mis-interpreted if you didn’t see it as poetry? God has literal wings so He must be a winged creature. He will set out walls for us to hide behind. Or perhaps He will literally make a blanket out of His feathers and cover us with it….
I really like your answer to 3, Jill. softening our hearts with poetry: absolute truth with prose. So good and succinct to remember.
Jill, this is good what you said about prose , that “our deceitful hearts need melting, yes, but they also need commands, boundaries, concrete reminders of truth.”
I desperately need to grasp God’s love for me with greater depth! The song is so moving and I want to keep listening to it!
I have been a Christian for over 32 years! Walking closely with God for 22 years. I am an elder’s wife, a women’s ministry leader, a mother of 4 precious girls, a sister to 5 others and a truly blessed woman. However, I am struggling to experience that joy inexpressible and glorious as stated in 1 Peter! I need this study and am looking forward to a fresh eye on God’s love for His people.
You ladies are a huge encouragement to me. Thank you!
JoVeda — welcome welcome welcome! I was on the road and slow to approve your first comments, but now you can get on freely.
Welcome JoVeda! How brave you are, elbow deep in significant ministry, to say “I want more of HIM”!! You will find much kinship here on that journey. So thrilled to have you here with us. 🙂
WELCOME, JoVeda! Glad you’ve joined us. 🙂
welcome! I am praying this for us all!!!
JoVeda J. Welcome I pray you get your fresh eye on Gods love for You!
Thank you everybody! ?❤️?
Hello! I am new to the online study. I am in the middle of a book study of Idol Lies with a friend. During the study I realized how much I did not know the depth of Christ’s love for me, how much I hunger for it. I have plan on participating in this study as well. I was touched by the song.
I look forward to studying with you all!
Liz VH – welcome — we may need to call you Liz VH to differentiate you from another Liz! So glad you are here.
Oh Liz VH – a warm welcome to you and your beautiful, hungry heart. Isn’t it amazing how Christ’s love just draws us in? I really look forward to getting to know you better here!
Welcome! Liz VH. Glad that you are coming here to join us!
Welcome! Looking forward to you being here. 🙂
Liz VH Welcome:) I also came to this blog thru Idol Lies. It has been a huge blessing in my life to be here. Hope for you as well.
2. Let’s look at the same truth expressed first in prose and then in poetry. What does it say and what does it mean in each case?
A. 1 Peter 5:7 – A casting of anxiety is a great mind picture and it is straight forward but I do see that I cannot literally hold my anxiety in my hand and throw it. So it is a word picture. I love it though because the second half tells me why I do this, because He cares for you.
B. Psalm 91:4 – This is less of a straight forward word and more of a word picture than prose. If literally I interpreted it I may think God actually has wings that He hides me under when it is just a poetic way of saying God is my protector. I like word pics but they cannot be interpreted literally.
3. With the above example in mind, answer this:
A. What advantage does each genre have (prose and poetry)? Prose is more straight forward
Poetry is more of a beautiful picture. Sometimes when you have an abstract concept like freedom or truth, poetry can express this beautifully in pictures painted through words. That is poetry. It will help the reader visualize the concept in a way it cannot otherwise. Not literal but a helpful picture.
B. How could Psalm 91:4 be mis-interpreted if you didn’t see it as poetry? I could actually see God having wings. Or maybe think he is a bird.
Thank you for clarifying these things for us!!! Context and genre are key to proper interpretation of Scripture.
Angela, HI!!! SO GOOD TO HAVE YOU HERE AGAIN…well you have always been ‘with us’..but..I AM GLAD!! :)))
Ha ha! Thanks! I am glad to be visible right now! For such a time as this. 😉
1. What stood out to you from the above and why?
So many things. “Up until the 1800’s, The Song of Songs was the most preached on book in the Old Testament.” Well. I have heard similar statements several times and I decided I needed to do a bit of digging myself to try and confirm this! This consumed a lot of my time late last night and early this morning…..and HOW FASCINATING! I was initially brought up short by my own skepticism when reading such statements as “except for the book of John and the Psalms, the most copied Latin book of the Bible (during the Medieval period) was the Song of Solomon.” My very first thought was “of course, it’s so short!!”. No. It was PRECIOUS to persecuted Christians as they fled their homes, were tortured and killed for the Gospel. It knit the love of Christ into their very beings. It seems to have been taken hand in hand with the gospel of John and amplified that gospel in those terrifying times. The more I dug, the more amazing quotes I thought about sharing here…..but everything I found is easily googled, so I leave that to all of our curiosities!
One quote that I did keep coming across in article after article was this: “If you love Jesus Christ, you will love this song because here are words that fully express the rapture of the heart that has fallen in love with Christ.” And I can’t resist adding Spurgeon’s “This Book stands like the tree of life in the midst of the garden, and no man shall ever be able to pluck its fruit, and eat thereof, until first he has been brought by Christ past the sword of the cherubim, and led to rejoice in the love which hath delivered him from death.”
I also wouldn’t want to just breeze by your statement Dee that “The Song is definitely a book that has been trampled upon.” I well remember when a (then) very famous mega church pastor preached on the Song…..soft porn indeed. Crude and brutish and demeaning to women. Many seekers and very young Christians were his targeted audience – and many were left wounded and bleeding. But even a reading and teaching of the Song that limits it’s teaching to marraige- without trying to be titillating in the lewdist ways – can be devastating. It was so interesting to me to see the historical shift in the church from the Song revealing Christ’s love for His own to more of a “marriage manual”. There was such a direct correlation between that shift and the near obscurity of the Song. Ultimately, our hunger is for CHRIST. When He began to be pushed to the sidelines in the preaching and teaching of this book…..well, we just weren’t hungry for the paltry offering left in His place. 🙁
Jackie! You did what I only thought about: looking up the history of the Song being most preached on prior to the 1800’s. I had not heard that fact and it intrigued me. Thanks for your good insights and summary (my curiosity is piqued, but I may need to take your word for it! 🙂 Or I too will get lost in research. ) I love the quote you shared and the way you explained what a precious book this was for persecuted, fleeing Christians.
Jackie love your digging:)
I love the digging you did here, Jackie. Thanks so much for doing this and whetting our appetites. Love the quotes!
Jackie–I am keeping these quotes: “If you love Jesus Christ, you will love this song because here are words that fully express the rapture of the heart that has fallen in love with Christ.” And I can’t resist adding Spurgeon’s “This Book stands like the tree of life in the midst of the garden, and no man shall ever be able to pluck its fruit, and eat thereof, until first he has been brought by Christ past the sword of the cherubim, and led to rejoice in the love which hath delivered him from death.”
Jackie, your comments have encouraged me to look up Spurgeon’s sermons and meditations on SoS. What a wealth of teaching there is by this famous preacher of the 1800’s! I looked at his meditations, Morning by Morning, and found 17 in this. He did a long sermon on 1:2. Your love is better than wine!
Thanks for sharing his quote!
Shirley – It is just so neat when we might hesitate to share….then we feel “nudged” to do so anyway…..and then the ripple effect is that others go digging too….smiling to see the “gold” you found with Spurgeon! This study blog is certainly a unique place of learning, growing and encouragement! 🙂
Jackie, thank you for sharing those two amazing quotes! I love how Spurgeon says we have been brought by Christ past the sword of the cherubim…yes, The Songs is like we’ve been brought back into The Garden. You can also google Mike Reeves along with Song of Songs and you should find the excellent sermons Dee had us listen to the first time we studied this.
2-4 They say that the longest 18 in. are those that go from your head to your heart. I think that poetry helps to bridge that gap better then anything else. word pictures that evoke an emotion can lead to a better understanding. To be honest I don’t understand how anyone does not get the difference between a word picture/song/poem and a letter/prose….unless they just want to find a reason to argue!
I have little patience for academic picking apart of the Bible by those who have no relationship with Jesus. HOLY SPIRIT MUST be living inside of us to be able to interpret it correctly, It is a love letter to HIS children, it is our guide book and our instruction manual. It is not an academic text book to be studies by our minds alone.
Cyndi – I smiled just now to read this – that’s what I was struck with in the Spurgeon quote I just shared! He would have LOVED what you are saying! 🙂
Love your last three sentences here, Cyndi. That’s exactly what is misunderstood by so many.
I get what you are saying Cyndi, regarding an “academic text,” however, i do believe the bible is a wonderful history book as well. Think of it this way, maybe those who aren’t believers, become believers due to their study of the text. I guess I am glad they are at least exposed to the book. Plus, since I am so inept at understanding poetry, but have the Holy Spirit within me, I hope I don’t entirely miss the point of this text as I have done so many times before (as I do with the parables Jesus taught also)!
So true, Laura. And there are many (even famous Christians like CS Lewis and many others: a well known Minneapolis doctor is one) who have been skeptics but reading the Bible brought them to faith. It is the work of the Holy Spirit that caused that to happen. What I see in Cyndi’s statement is that people like some I love, who argue against the Word or read it just to find what they are looking for, to support their view, do so without faith and without the Spirit of God. And they try so hard to make it all fit together in an academic, logical way. And if it doesn’t ‘make sense’, they discard it. But without faith, it just isn’t possible to see all the pieces; because so much of it rests on the plan of redemption; which can only be truly embraced with the Holy Spirit drawing us,
We can truly be believers without understanding the whole of the Bible. But we can’t understand the whole of the Bible without being believers. 🙂
what Wanda said 🙂
???
I just can’t help but add that I am SO excited to see people here who have not been able to be active on the blog in a long, long time – can hardly wait to see the many ways that the sum of all of our differences will contribute to greater personal understanding and application of this exciting study! 😉
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2. Let’s look at the same truth expressed first in prose and then in poetry. What does it say and what does it mean in each case?
When I thought about both of these verses, I see them both poetically. In I Peter 5:7, ‘Casting’ our anxieties brings to mind the picture of throwing down all the worry, problems, icky stuff we carry and letting Jesus take it from us, because He is the One who loves and cares for us with limitless love. Just as Psalm 91:4 shows us the picture of birds under the wing of their parent; protected from harm and circumstances. Another picture of completely selfless love.
A. What advantage does each genre have (prose and poetry)? Prose describes setting, events, facts, and relays information with clarity and detail: often relaying much in a concise way. Poetry often gives us a word picture that sticks in our minds and allows us to apply and ‘feel’ the truth. Poetry arouses the senses. I can’t imagine a world without poetry or word pictures. We all use them multiple times a day and often don’t even realize it.
Wanda – I smiled when I read your answer to #2 – you truly are a poetic soul….seeing poetry in so much of life! LOVE THAT. And I would agree that “casting our anxieties” is a vivid word picture of something very literal and real!
Wanda, I love what you said here about poetry…it helps us “feel” the truth and arouses the senses. I got my mom a book of poetry by Mary Oliver, and I’ve read a few of them. Some of her poems just bring tears to my eyes.
A. What advantage does each genre have (prose and poetry)?
Both communicate that God loves us and is to be trusted.
Prose-1Peter is more direct and practical, like me 🙂
Poetry Psalm 91 engages our imagination in a word picture, inviting us to imagine both the tenderness and the strength of God and His care for us.
B. How could Psalm 91:4 be mis-interpreted if you didn’t see it as poetry?
That God physically resembles a bird?
What stood out to me was the Jesus Culture song. That song had such a powerful pull on my heart and I saw Jesus In such a powerful life transforming way at a time in my life I so desperately needed to see Him and in a way I needed to see it. The other thing that stood out to me was “I believe you will be greatly refreshed by seeing how a beautiful earthly marriage can illuminate Christs love for you and His desire for your responsive love for Him” Lord I KNOW I will need a lot of Your help in this connection. Help me to get it. Holy Spirit I pray for your healing power Go to the root of my being.Refresh Me
Liz – for sure this is touching a raw and tender spot in your life. You are not alone in this, but I do believe that the Spirit will bring more and more healing to the “root of your being”, just as you prayed, through this time in the Song. 🙂
4. Since poetry is multi-layered, and since the Song is poetry, what does that teach you about how to interpret it correctly?
That the images are not literal but figurative? We are to engage our imaginations?
4. Since poetry is multi-layered, and since the Song is poetry, what does that teach you about how to interpret it correctly?
We must plumb the depths of what the text has to offer and not get frustrated in lack of understanding or clarity. The text of the SoS should not be taken at the surface level, but delved into. I am thankful for the help of the Holy Spirit and my bible study blog sisters in helping me to capture the beauty sometimes unable to glean on my own (just so you know, I’m counting on both the Holy Spirit and my sisters again this time around to help me see…:) ). I’m thinking that folks like me who have a tendency to think more concretely than imaginatively are intimidated to approach the SoS because of the poetic writing; that certainly was me initially in the previous SoS study, but oh how I was blessed.
Except you enthrall me, never shall be free,
Nor ever chaste, except you ravish me.
John Donne
5. What do you think Donne is communicating with this? What is the first level and what is the second?
So, here we go out of the starting gates! Totally don’t get this phrase…..
I looked up three words; enthralled, chaste, and ravished, just in case I didn’t understand the meanings. They mean “captivated,” “virgin,” and “filled with strong emotion.”
I think he is communicating his love for God. (First layer?)
So, someone (presumably God), captivates him, he is not a virgin, but expects to be filled with a strong emotion from Him (like a virgin would feel?).
I don’t understand what the second layer would be??
6. Are you shocked that Donne would ask God to “ravish” him? What do you think he means and how might this correspond to the Song?
I think one would be shocked if they used the word as we think it is used; to “eat someone up?” I didn’t find that in the definition though. I suppose if you are a sexual being, you are filled with emotion, and here he is confessing he is a sexual being (not chaste) and expects to be filled with emotion from God. Again I guess it means we will be filled with joy by reading this song?
Already confused and frustrated to not understand…I agree with Nanci, about being someone who is more concrete and doesn’t want to approach this writing because I don’t get it!! I need help ?
🙂 … I’m with you, Laura. I googled for an explanation of the text; I couldn’t seem to wrap me head around it. I was never much good at literature.
Nanci and Laura – I am sitting here astonished this morning at the depth of both of your “teachable spirits”! It’s so sweet to see your kinship in this acknowledgement of being more “concrete thinkers” than “poetic thinkers”…..and yet both of your unique and amazing personalities shine through. 😉 So often for me, it is in the areas where I struggle and flounder the most – but persevere! – that I GROW the most. I’m certain that you two represent MANY of our silent readers as well…..and I am praying that He will meet you here in the “hard”…..and we know that He will!
2. Let’s look at the same truth expressed first in prose and then in poetry. What does it say and what does it mean in each case?
A. 1 Peter 5:7
“Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.” This means what it says-to cast ALL your anxiety on Him for He deeply cares for you.
B. Psalm 91:4
“He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.”-This is what casting your anxiety on Him for He deeply cares for you looks like. Poetry helps us to ’embrace’ the truth-to get it past our heads and into our affections for Him. He will gather you under his wings -I can press into Him and hide in his warm, protective wings where I will find rest-He is our peace!! 🙂 His faithfulness is your shield and rampart-I don’t have to battle it for He is faithfully battling it for me and I can trust Him for I am His and He is faithful-never changing!!
3. With the above example in mind, answer this:
A. What advantage does each genre have (prose and poetry)?
Prose gives us the truth with facts and information that appeals to the mind-the intellect-which is important for it has to start there-so we can begin meditating on it. Poetry illumines the truth via helping it travel from the head to the heart with metaphors and word pictures..I like what Wanda said-It arouses our senses!! I think it presses us deeper into Him.
B. How could Psalm 91:4 be mis-interpreted if you didn’t see it as poetry?
Maybe it could be mis-construed that He will keep you from any type of hardships in life—just read Job and look at our own lives! 🙂 The truth is it is about intimacy with Him-pressing into Him in your battle instead of backing away-resting in Him while in your battle entrusting it to Him- and He is strengthening you and molding your character in Him.
5. What do you think Donne is communicating with this? What is the first level and what is the second?
From what I gathered from my google search…this is speaking of the sin and evil that consumes this man; he is so consumed with sinfulness that he will never be free but for the Lord taking over and providing for freedom. The freedom provided by the Lord is an imprisonment of sorts, but an imprisonment in the goodness of the Lord. Another explanation given was that the Lord “offers” but does not force Himself upon anyone; apparently force is what he deems needed to free him from the sin that consumes.
Regarding layers…I’m not really sure.
6. Are you shocked that Donne would ask God to “ravish” him? What do you think he means and how might this correspond to the Song?
From the explanations I have read, “ravish” would equate to violently taking him, some referred to this as rape…not liking that reference.
How does this correspond to the SoS?…I can see correspondence in the Bridegroom offering Himself, pursuing, but not forcing Himself upon His beloved, but I’m not tracking with the more violent nature that seems present.
Not so sure about the Donne quote…for people like me (and Laura…anyone else?) it is kind of frustrating. I would suggest that if the quote is used, it too be explained…some people will “get it” while others will be discouraged in trying to interpret it.
Nanci – see my note to you and Laura above…..I’m not particularly a poetic thinker either and I will struggle some here! I’m also not terribly much a concrete thinker either….so I don’t know WHAT that says about me!!?? Regardless, I am so sure that you and Laura are representing so many others…..particularly some of our silent participants!! I feel like you two (and maybe others who will join in ) are humbly and honestly providing a perspective we need. Remember that we are a Body….and every single part of the body is vital!!! 🙂
I only have a minute this morning, but thought this may be helpful with the topic of Donne’s sonnet. I mentioned Tony Reinke’s book (free download on Piper’s site if interested) earlier—interestingly, just before the quote I gave, he referenced Donne’s sonnet (in its entirety). I thought some of his thoughts might be helpful to others, as they were to me (if not, sorry for the lengthiness of this post!):
“The affection-driven language in the sonnet is graphic. Whether or not he intended it, John Donne put irresistible grace to bold verse. It’s a story that unfolds in three metaphors. First, we are broken sinners who need the triune God to reshape and recreate our heart’s longings. Second, our hearts are like overrun towns governed by God’s enemy, and we must have this evil dictator overthrown and run out. Third, we are betrothed to our evil desires and pleasures. Again, we cannot escape. The last two lines are the most poignant. God must overcome us and awaken us to superior pleasures in him. Until God acts on us, we are lost.Donne’s language is dangerously affectionate, but appropriately shocking if we are really as desperate as the Bible says. And we are. We must be remade for God. We must get new hearts from God. We must find our new identity in God. But we keep falling back on ourselves. We are broken. We are weak. We are distortions of what God intends. We can’t control what we want. We can’t control what we feel….”
Lizzy – that is an exceptionally good resource – thank you so much!
Bravo! Great resource.
Lizzy,
What a excellent resource! Thank you. “God must overcome us and awaken us to superior pleasures in him. Until God acts on us, we are lost.”
Beautiful summary here, Lizzy. Until participating here, I had only heard of Donne fleetingly. He is quoted in several books I’ve read, but I’ve never researched him much. But here, I’ve seen his work come up several times. I’m going to copy/paste the paragraph you posted because it really inspires me to look deeper.
OK, Lizzy. You have hooked me. I just downloaded “The Joy Project” by Tony Reinke for FREE onto Kindle on my computer. (Not that I don’t have enough books to read already! LOL!) He is just too good a find to pass up!
Diane–I’m so glad you got it! Amazing timing that the Lord had led me to it just before reading the blog study on Sunday.When I started it, I really thought of you, and that you would like it. Oh it is RICH, full of gold–and it’s not too long (I’m like you with a million “to reads” on my stack!)
Same here Diane 🙂
Thank you Lizzy, I was intrigued when you mentioned the book initially, but have sort of agreed with myself not to “purchase” and more books for my stack, but a free download…well that I can do!
Thanks Lizzy and Jackie!
2. Let’s look at the same truth expressed first in prose and then in poetry. What does it say and what does it mean in each case?
A. 1 Peter 5:7
“Cast all your anxiety on him, because he cares for you.” I so love this directive, given in prose. Even this morning, there IS something I can “do”. It’s very plain. Anxieties are knocking on my door this morning…..but I can step back and say “It’s for you, Jesus”. And how priceless that he tells me WHY – HE CARES FOR ME!!!! He knows that I simply cannot “handle” my anxieties……but He can!! He cares so much. He doesn’t want to see the life drained out of me….but rather, HIS LIFE overflowing through me.
B. Psalm 91:4
“He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.” Oh, how THIS one is a favorite! I love the way Rebecca put it: “this is what casting your anxiety upon Him for He deeply cares for you looks like”. Yes! “under his wings you will find refuge” has come to me again and again through the years…..just Sunday night, in fact. I attended my very first Al Anon meeting…..and I felt like I was going to break into a million pieces right there! The emotions I experienced were SO powerful that I was actually afraid of them! But this came to me: tuck up under his wings…..safety, refuge, peace…..”. With this in my heart….He brought me to a place of being grateful for experiencing genuine, pent up emotions….and yet, being still and knowing that He is God.
Jackie, as I read your comments about fearing the emotion, I can relate, and also thought that because I am under His wings I can dare to allow the emotions to come to the surface. Praying for you, I know you will be salt and light in those Al-Anon meetings
Jackie I too am praying for you. I am sure you will be a powerful light in those meetings as you work thru your own emotions. You do not walk thru that alone and I know you know that. SO thankful you have the Lord by your side.
3. With the above example in mind answer this:
A. What advantage does each genre have (prose and poetry)?
Prose is like a bedrock of concrete truth (in the Scriptures!). Poetry MUST conform to the truth of Prose in the Scriptures! And indeed, it does melt the heart and illuminate and so much more that others have so well said here already!
B. How could Psalm 91:4 be mis-interpreted if you didn’t see it as poetry?
Romans 1:22&23 immediately comes to mind: “Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the Immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.” We could miss the GLORY of God and think far too little of Him. We could miss the POWER of what this word picture represents.
4. Since poetry is multi-layered, and since the Song is poetry, what does that teach you about how to interpret it correctly? A lot of times in Poetry there is a “surface” observation but as you ponder it begins to sink and have a deeper message that expands past just the initial observation/word picture. But always poetry must be brought to the truth, you cannot interpret a word picture in a way that is contrary to the truth in the Bible.
5. What do you think Donne is communicating here? What is the first level and what is the second? I think that he is communicating that there is no halfway with God and I cannot make myself “all-in”. It is what Keller and Reeves preach: the Holy Spirit reveals the beauty of Christ and this takes over our heart, our mind, essentially He comes to “enthrall” me in order to pull me away from what I am currently enthralled with (idols, sin) – His winning me over frees me.
The first level is an image of confusion, a contrasting and seemingly contradicting statement. The second level is what I said above. This is a passage that I believe can only be used in reference to God/Christ (and the title is apt).
6. Are you shocked that Donne would ask God to “ravish” him? What do you think he means and how might this correspond to the Song? I looked up the meaning of ravish. Literary speaking it means “fill (someone) with intense delight; enrapture.” However, Donne uses “chaste” which is usually a sexual reference to being pure. Ravish can have the connotation of enthralling/captivating sexually… However it has been used to describe “by force” relations…. I do not think Donne means “by force” … but I wonder if he is speaking physically here….to be so consumed by Him and His beauty that I am chaste in all other relations (chaste can also mean being loyal to marriage vows). Unable to resist Him, ravished by Him I forsake others to stay true. Again – there is a message of being all-in, you cannot be halfway with God. You either are growing in that love or the pretending will quickly fall away. And there is a message of Him coming to us…He does the ravishing, the enthralling.
The Song is a song of two people ravished with one another…. But the bridegroom seems to be more ravished with the bride, and the bride seems … distractable. The bridegroom is Christ ravished with me, His creation, and the bride is me and He is melting me to become ravished with Him.
He is “metling me to become ravished with Him.” Lovely.
Another excellent summary of Donne’s message, Jill! I was here to look up ‘ravish’ but you have done it so well. Your applications both to marriage and to single living are so good. Being all in. Not letting our eyes be taken by another love but Christ first always. So rich.
Jill, I think you have summed up the key point of Donne and the Song here. I as the bride of Christ am so reluctant and “distractable”. Christ as the Bridegroom is ravished with me and is intent on drawing me to Him, “melting me” until I am “ravished with Him”. Wonderful summary!
this is good….
I loved your pondering here Jill.
4. Poetry must be interpreted rightly and not literally. It is expressive and helpful for abstract thought.
5. What do you think Donne is communicating with this? What is the first level and what is the second?You MUST read Donne as poetry, otherwise it would be crazy/creepy thought. 🙂 It is an expressive wording of God’s love. The all consuming rapture of God’s unstoppable love.
6. Are you shocked that Donne would ask God to “ravish” him? What do you think he means and how might this correspond to the Song? No. Not since studying poetry. It is the most intimate picture of human intimacy so it is a way to express the unexpressible. I think he is speaking like Spurgeon who says I will kiss the wave that slams me into the rock of ages. The Song is this expressive example of poetry.
7. One of the strengths of poetry is its word pictures, for word pictures are able to slip into the heart, helping us feel, and love the Lord with all our heart, or fear HIm, or trust Him. They also tend to be memorable. Can you think of a word picture from Scripture that has impacted you? I have been thinking alot about the parables. Like if something causes you to sin, cut it off…That is a powerful picture of sin. Or sin as leaven how it spreads through the whole dough expanding it.
Please help me welcome JoVeda and Liz VH — newcomers who posted yesterday!
. What do you think Donne is communicating with this? What is the first level and what is the second?
1st level- His own desire to be faithful and that he understands his tendency to wander
2nd level- That he knows that he is dependent upon the Holy Spirit to captivate him in a way that makes him able to love God with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.
6. Are you shocked that Donne would ask God to “ravish” him? What do you think he means and how might this correspond to the Song
I read some definitions of ‘ravish’, this was from vocabulary.com
“If you are ravished by a piece of music, you are overcome with intense feeling while listening to it. The older meaning of ravish is to overcome by physical assault (especially sexual assault) and is still sometimes used.
Ravish is a verb of contrasts, having two meanings that, while both dealing with emotional issues, are polar opposites — the first being to fill with joy, the second being to assault and violate a woman against her will. The history of ravish began with the negative connotation — that of seizing by violence and carrying someone, usually a woman, away. It comes from the Latin rapere, although the meaning wasn’t always sexual violation — the idea of rape didn’t appear until the mid-15th century.”
I thought it worth noting that Donne lived 22 January 1572– 31 March 1631.
We do need the Spirit to forcibly change us, left to our natural selves we will never choose or desire God. It is humbling to consider.
Chris, I appreciate the frankness of this. I do think there is a sense of “force” in ravish but not against my will, but rather in spite of it in Donne’s context? Our current culture makes these things complicated. To be ravished by someone that has your best interest at heart and loves you more than you could be loved is quite different than being ravished by a selfish brute…..???
This is going out on a limb, but I keep thinking of the scene from Gone With the Wind where Rhett ravishes Scarlett. She was withholding herself from him, diverting her emotions to another. As her husband Rhett was the rightful place for her love and was entitled to her physically. Her heart was adulterous, just like ours.
Does this image resonate with anybody else?
I’ve been following and pondering the words of Donne’s poem. “Batter” and “ravish” are definitely words that connote violence. We need to remember that they are imagery, pictures to point out how desperately we need God to free our imprisoned hearts from the chains of our own self-destructive addiction to sin. I quote here Tony Reinke’s The Joy Project. Thanks, Lizzy, for finding this pearl of a book.
Diane – WHAT a quote!!! And yes, yes, yes ….”We don’t need a list of practical solutions to get our lives in order; we need a loving God to invade our chaos.” Like Lizzy, I was pretty much undone to read this!! I must admit to being torn….visited Al Anon for the first time this week and plan to visit two more yet this week…..the chaos of an alcoholic son has become unbearable. Al Anon, wonderful help though it has been to thousands…..appears to me to be a “list of practical solutions to get our lives in order….” but oh, how I need this loving God to invade our chaos – THAT is the cry of my heart!!!
Love the quote you shared here Diane, and so timely with all the “resolutions and goals” conversations around–“We don’t need a list of practical solutions to get our lives in order; we need a loving God to invade our chaos.”
There is something about that last sentence that makes my eyes water–I have always feared “chaos”–and this truth, that He wants to invade it…such safety, peace, REST in that thought!