WE ARE TOLD THAT PROVERBS AND PARABLES ARE “RIDDLES” (PVBS. 1:6)
OFTEN THEY CAN PERPLEX AND CHALLENGE
THE CONUNDRUM I FACE IS THAT I KNOW GOD LONGS FOR IS A BRIDE WHO LOVES HIM FOR HIM, AND NOT FOR WHAT HE CAN GIVE HER. THAT’S WHAT WE WILL SEE IN THE PARABLE THIS WEEK. OUR HEARTS ARE SO EVIL WE WANT TO USE GOD TO GET WHAT WE WANT, AND WE DON’T LOVE HIM FOR HIM.
AND YET SO OFTEN PROVERBS SEEM TO TEACH THAT OBEYING THE RULES WILL LEAD TO US GETTING WHAT WE WANT FROM GOD.
CONSIDER:
Honor the Lord with your wealth and with the first fruits of all your produce,
then your barns will be filled with plenty,
and your vats will be bursting with wine.
(Proverbs 3:9-10)
ISN’T THAT THE HEALTH AND WEALTH GOSPEL THAT MAKES US CRINGE?
ISN’T THAT IN DIRECT OPPOSITION OF GIVING JUST BECAUSE YOU LOVE GOD?
HOW SHALL WE SOLVE THIS RIDDLE, THIS CONDUNDRUM?
WHEN STEVE AND I WOULD FACE A CONDUNDRUM WE WOULD PRAY SEPARATELY AND THEN COME TOGETHER, AND FIND THAT THE SAME SPIRIT SAID THE SAME THING. MAY WE PRAY AND SEEK GOD’S WISDOM.
SO PRAY BEFORE YOU READ MY THOUGHTS, AND MY SOLUTION TO THIS RIDDLE.
MAY THE MIND OF CHRIST OUR SAVIOR
GIVE US WISDOM AND UNITY.
A SPECIAL WELCOME TO OUR NEW SUMMER PARTICIPANTS — ALREADY YOU HAVE ADDED RICHNESS TO OUR FELLOWSHIP! THIS MORNING I APPROVED THREE MORE NEW SISTERS FOR LAST WEEK’S BLOG — SO HOPE TO SEE YOU HERE!
PREPARE YOUR HEARTS WITH THIS:
SUNDAY: ICEBREAKER
1. What thoughts do you have about the above and why?
2. How do you solve the conundrum that sometimes Proverbs seem to feel like a works-oriented religion, saying, “God will bless me if I…” when we know He blesses us simply because we are His? Do Proverbs oppose the Gospel?
MONDAY-FRIDAY BIBLE STUDY AND KELLER VIDEO
2. Read Luke 15:1-3 and explain the context of the parable of the prodigal sons.
3. Read Luke 15:11-32 and comment on anything that stands out to you and why?
4. Watch this ten minute video from Tim Keller and share your notes and comments.
Rembrandt portrays both sons in this painting.
5. Which one do you think is the older son, and why?
6. How was each son trying to be his own Savior? How do you try to be your own Savior?
I run to my idols when I am trying to be my own Savior. David Powlison says: Our desire for good things seize the throne, becoming idols that replace the king. Here is the wisdom that has helped me solve the condundrum. So often for me running to idols has to do with fear — fear that God will not meet me. Is it possible that the maxims of Proverbs that seem to tell us that God will bless our obedience are His way of letting us know He will meet us, and that we do not need to fear abandoning ourselves to Him? If, for example, I tithe, not to get health and wealth, but out of love for God, is it possible that God encourages me by saying, “Don’t be afraid you won’t have enough, for I will take care of you.”
This is the pattern I see in Proverbs. Just as the Gospel teaches us to love and trust God for He is good, so do the Proverbs. We do not follow these proverbs (caring for the poor, giving sacrificially, guarding our tongue) to make God bless us, but because we love Him. But, when we are afraid to obey, He gives usencouragement following the command in order to help us overcome the fears. The error comes when we twist the proverbs in a Pharisaical fashion thinking, I want God to do this so I will do this. Or Unless I do this, God will get me.”
The health and wealth gospel preys on the desperate — it has permeated Africa and the prisons. It is so wrong, twisting God’s Word. (The Gospel Coalition is running a series of articles this month on what we can do about it — if you are interested: Africa Infested by Health and Wealth Teaching)
If we come to God just to get it will backfire. But if we love God for God, it is true that He often protects us from pits and showers us with blessings. That doesn’t mean we won’t suffer, for we will — but God will use our suffering for good.
7. Do you agree or disagree with my solution to the condundrum? Explain.
8. Read Proverbs 3 and slow down if anything quickens you. Contemplate. Comment.
9. If you were to apply the following proverb to your life today, what would it be, and how might this take faith in the goodness of God?
10. How does Proverbs 3:8 encourage you to apply the above?
11. See if you can see this pattern of a command followed by an encouragement in:
A. Proverbs 3:9 (command) 3:10 (encouragement)
B. Proverbs 3:11 (command) 3:12 (encouragement)
C. Proverbs 3:21 (command) 3:24-26 (encouragement)
12. Read Proverbs 4 and stop at anything that quickens you. Contemplate. Comment.
13. The heart of proverbs 4 is verse 23. Ponder and consider how you might better do this.
SATURDAY
14. What is your take-a-way and why?
186 comments
1. What thoughts do you have about the above and why?
Oh I am SOOO grateful you are addressing this issue! I have faced this (had it thrown in my face, actually) so many times by fellow Believers, the idea that if you follow all the rules, you get health, wealth, and prosperity. I have my own thoughts on it (largely influenced by other people’s thoughts, like Christian authors) and I have prayed about it, but I’m anxious to see what other’s here have concluded.
2. How do you solve the condundrum that sometimes Proverbs seem to feel like a works-oriented religion, saying, “God will bless me if I…” when we know He blesses us simply because we are His? Do Proverbs oppose the Gospel? I spent probably the first 43 years of my Christian life, living by the “follow the rules, obey God and then He owes you! You will be fulfilled and happy in your career, you will be blessed with a marriage and children, and whatever your heart desires, no financial issues, etc…” That is a double edged sword. First of all, no one can “follow all the rules” (which is why Jesus had to go to the cross) so it is a set up for failure and secondly, God can’t be put into a formula. His ways are not our ways, His thoughts our not our thoughts. When we operate from this mindset we are lift either disappointed with God and feeling like we want to turn out backs on Him for not holding up His end of the deal, or left feeling like we are always walking a tight rope and never being good enough to earn His love and rewards. He loves me just because He is Love, it would go against His character not to, and I want to love Him for Him. But He does make these promises and I have come to conclude that His definition of “barns filled with plenty” and “vats bursting” may not look like the literal thing that most people think of (physical wealth.) He has filled my barns with plenty and my vats are bursting…just Knowing Him and He has blessed my life immeasurably in countless ways. I love His gifts and I experience them every day, but I want to (and pray I do) love Him far more than His gifts.
Mary, this is SO beautiful: “But He does make these promises and I have come to conclude that His definition of “barns filled with plenty” and “vats bursting” may not look like the literal thing that most people think of (physical wealth.) He has filled my barns with plenty and my vats are bursting…just Knowing Him and He has blessed my life immeasurably in countless ways. I love His gifts and I experience them every day, but I want to (and pray I do) love Him far more than His gifts.”
oh mary!! I started copying the whole post–you always bring such beauty (and tears!) Sharing this line with the kids: “God can’t be put into a formula. His ways are not our ways, His thoughts our not our thoughts. When we operate from this mindset we are lift either disappointed with God and feeling like we want to turn out backs on Him for not holding up His end of the deal, or left feeling like we are always walking a tight rope and never being good enough to earn His love and rewards. He loves me just because He is Love…”
God bless you, Mary. You have hit the nail on the head again. Your testimony is so profound here. This is so beautiful.
Your thinking is mine as well. God’s ways are not our ways or His thoughts our thoughts. When our daughter’s marriage broke down in tragic ways, I was forced yet again to either feel like God had turned his back on us, or to feel like we must have failed God; or I was forced to believe God had a plan that I could not fathom and say with Job, “Though he slay me yet will I trust him.”
Oh Diane, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! “or I was forced to believe God had a plan that I could not fathom and say with Job, “Though he slay me yet will I trust him.” So often it is a “plan I cannot fathom.” and, like Rebecca mentioned, I hear Him saying, “Do you trust Me???? TRUST ME!”
Mary, You have given us such a good start for our week of study! Your posts always carry so much power and weight because we are aware of your life circumstances. It is so wonderful that your illness has truly strengthened your faith — it shows in your beautiful posts like the one above. I related to the last line the most: ” I love His gifts and I experience them every day, but I want to (and pray I do) love Him far more than His gifts.”
Mary, I think you did a wonderful job of tackling this opening question with such good insight. It clearly is evident that you love Him for Him!
Mary, you walk the talk…His beauty exudes from you…thank you for sharing your heart.
Trying to stay behind the scenes here, but I simply must add my Amen to all that has been affirmed about Mary’s words. Each of those points that others have highlighted stirred my heart too. Longing to love Him for Him alone….. No formulas for our mysterious, incomprehensible God….barns and vats looking differently than what we first imagine….though He slay me, yet I will trust Him. Enough here for a takeaway on a Monday!
Thank you Mary for such a reminder; that grace is given to us, if we have faith in Him. I knew at an early age that life wasn’t “fair” when my dad died and my parents were faithful Christians. I didn’t understand why it happened, just that I had to believe God cared and still loved us. i watched mom struggle for the rest of her life, but never give in to being unfaithful to Him. A beautiful example for me.
What a wonderful way to begin our study — with a woman battling for her life against cancer who trusts and loves Him whether He heals her or not. Thank you so much, Mary.
1. What thoughts do you have about the above and why?
THIS week is going to be life changing for me. I am convicted already!! For I am by nature such a tightwad not wanting to veer off our budget!! Yet He has changed me so much from when I first started doing Dee’s studies and listening to Keller and others that I know He will continue to reveal things in my heart and draw me deeper into him this week-for I can still be a tightwad. I do know this, when i look at our budget and set aside to give, and I get nervous going above our giving budget I pretty consistently hear his gentle whisper every time, “Don’t you trust me? I will take care of you.”
Lord help me, help us as we journey with you this week. Help us to hear your voice in proverbs for you are wisdom. Help us to encourage one another in giving of our money, our time, ourselves not because we want you for what you can give us-melt our hearts to want you for you. Help us to fall in love with you deeper. In your name we pray, amen.
Such a good prayer for all of us, Rebecca.
Thank you for the prayer Rebecca. Right now I am reminded of Mal. 3:10.
Oh Rebecca, I hear Him say the same thing to me all the time…”Do you trust Me???” “TRUST ME!” Thank you for your prayer on behalf of us all.
Viewing this verse as a ‘stand-alone’ certainly does sound like we must do in order for Him to do. But I also look at Prov 3:5..trust not in the Lord with all your heart and LEAN NOT ON YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING. I do not profess to understand God because He is awesome in wisdom. I believe the ‘firstfruits of our crops not only include money but also time (not just to others, but also time spent with the Father) , talents, gifts, intercessions etc. The Lord has no need for us to ‘give’ Him anything. He already owns everything. We honor Him by sharing with others what He has given us. The Lord looks at ‘motives’ of the heart. If we give only to receive…disappointment will follow. Giving because the love of God lives in us causes our barns and vats to overflow. Here again, it is not us causing the growth, it is Him. I have to ask myself at this point ‘How much more does the Lord want to bless me but I tie His hands by my own selfishness?’
As I am always afraid of offending someone..I apologize now.
Oops I must edit my previous post. Proverbs 3:5 says ‘Trust in the Lord with all your heart
Judi — don’t worry about offending. This group is full of grace and we like to ponder hard things together. I like your emphasis on God giving us, nothing we can do. i like your idea of giving the first and best time of the day to Him (if indeed morning is your best time — I think for most it is).
I love the kind of giving that is a joyful hilarity. I always remember a sermon by a 96 year old pastor who talked about making decisions 70 years before with his wife — one was to invest in a small clinic in Africa, and he said, with laughter, TODAY IT IS A HOSPITAL! I have wondered if this verse in part could mean that kind of abundance, seeing your seeds become GREAT CROPS!
beautiful post Judi “We honor Him by sharing with others what He has given us.”
Judi, nothing offensive at all in your post! And, like Dee said, lots of grace here! 🙂
“The Lord looks at ‘motives’ of the heart.”…well said, Judi, this is where the “rubber meets the road,” why are we really doing what we are doing..what is motivating, to honor the Lord and give Him glory or selfish reasons? I may “fool” my neighbor, but I will never fool the Lord…He knows my heart.
1. What thoughts do you have about the above and why?
Love the example of you and Steve praying separately, trusting the Spirit to lead—and how the unity that would come was evidence of the Spirit at work, such confirmation. I love that we can trust the Spirit to work and we have the gift of the power of prayer—I LOVE prayer, I love that He wants to hear us and listens, just amazes me! This was also a convicting example for me (you and Steve), because I think often I want to talk through/hash out (until my husband agrees with me! Awful!). I love this reminder to go away and pray, release it, trust the outcome to Him, trust Him to work in each of us. So good.
2. How do you solve the conundrum that sometimes Proverbs seem to feel like a works-oriented religion, saying, “God will bless me if I…” when we know He blesses us simply because we are His? Do Proverbs oppose the Gospel?
I don’t believe Proverbs oppose the Gospel, because they are God’s Word and all of the Bible points to Christ and supports the Gospel, whether I can see it clearly or not. But I think how I have tended to view those types of Proverbs is that is it not saying—God blesses because you do these things, they are not the catalyst for blessing because nothing we do on our own can ‘make’ God do something. He chooses to bless, because of who He is. But a heart that loves Him will do these things, or want to, and I do believe there is blessing to be found in following God’s ways—but that it is not the cause of the blessing—really hard to write that out and make sense! Hopefully I made some 🙂
Lizzy, You made perfect sense. A life lived devoted to God will produce the results found in the maxims of Proverbs. This is what all of society strives for, however, God is looking for the “right heart attitude.” And that attitude is looking only to love God and be used by God, rather than thinking about the “what will I get from God if I do this?”
I’m going to write my thoughts before I read anybody elses so I’m sure it’s from HIM :-).
I feel like what proverbs shares are the rules that God set in place for his kingdom to work by. it’s as if he is saying here are principles that if you put them into practice this is usually what will happen. I think even if a non-christian does what the parables say he will be rewarded because they are principles that guide it in place. kind of like gravity and the tide. I hope that makes sense.
I like to think of the book of Provers as God’s book of common sense. it is full of principles that if we test them out will usually be found to be true. I’m not sure that it’s a book about how God will bless us if we do these things as much as it is a book of Wisdom from the wisest man who ever lived…
as abby has been taking education classes she has seen how the principles in Proverbs are so clearly true. even when very Secular teachers are teaching she can see how true HIS word is.
these are principles that play out in our world all the time more than a list of promise blessings from God if we do them.
That’s good, Cyndi.
I just read everyone’s comments up to here..and already so solid and thoughtful! I love this fellowship!
I’ll be on vacation later this week and all of the next so I don’t expect to be here much for a couple of weeks. I will miss it so much. This lesson looks SO good too.
Wanted to just say that once again, the Lord showed Himself so sweetly to me this morning. The chronological reading was Ps. 136 today and one of the songs at church was based on that psalm. I love when that happens!
(Diane, I will be visiting for a couple of days in your fair country but will be on the opposite coast, in BC, to celebrate our 35th wedding anniversary. Would still love to travel east some day!)
Wanda, praying for you to enjoy celebrating your anniversary with travel…have a wonderful time!
oh Wanda, Happy 35th! So thankful you and your husband have each other and the little I’ve witnessed (via cyber world) of your marriage is a beautiful testimony to Him–blessings! Praying for your time!
Wanda, have a great time on vacation in BC. It is beautiful. I’ve actually never seen the Rockies except by plane. I’ve only been to BC once, yet my brother lives there. Happy 35th anniversary! May God bless you with many of his “kisses” as you celebrate together.
Wanda, I echo my sisters’ anniversary wishes…enjoy your travels…happy 35!
Oh my. Thank you all for your good wishes! And prayers. So appreciated. Have had a fairly productive day getting prepping for our trip, so I’m coming here to scroll through. It’s hard for me not to ‘talk’ but I am trying hard to stick to that discipline this week, since I’m not really putting the time into the study. 🙂
1. What thoughts do you have about the above and why? That this is really a rich and complex topic. One of those things that people choose not to think too much about because there is no clear cut answer.
2. How do you solve the conundrum that sometimes Proverbs seem to feel like a works-oriented religion, saying, “God will bless me if I…” when we know He blesses us simply because we are His? Do Proverbs oppose the Gospel?
First off, God blesses even if we are not His. Good things happen to bad people. That said this is one of the things that causes people to say that the bible is full of contradictions or that if things go wrong then you are not in God’s will and you should change the way you think, pray or act; something is wrong with you.
I don’t know how to solve this so hopefully this week’s study will give me some insight 🙂
Good point on God blessing those who are not good. Rain falling on just and unjust. And thanks for helping me spell conundrum right! 🙂
1. What thoughts do you have about the above and why?
I have been missing for a few weeks. Some were taking note of that on the facebook blog, and Wanda hit the nail squarely on the head. It has been wedding preparations that have absolutely swamped me. I am guessing that my participation may be sporadic at best this summer. We are about eleven weeks away from the wedding of my younger daughter, Wendy, at the tender age of 45! Suddenly in the last month, the preparations have seemed to intensify. A lot of it is fun, but frankly some of it is a real chore! Sometimes I have come on the blog and browsed through random comments, and have felt guilty that I couldn’t read all of them, and even more guilty that I wasn’t posting. I did purchase Keller’s sermon last week and listened to it, but didn’t take any notes. So please bear with me, sisters, and don’t take it personally when I disappear for awhile!
I was inspired by Dee’s story of she and Steve praying separately and then coming together, finding that the Spirit had sent the same message to each of them. I have sometimes pondered that church board meetings should be run that way — presenting the problem and then providing time for each person to silently and privately pray about the matter. I think that our decisions would be wiser and there would be a quicker consensus.
2. How do you solve the condundrum that sometimes Proverbs seem to feel like a works-oriented religion, saying, “God will bless me if I…” when we know He blesses us simply because we are His? Do Proverbs oppose the Gospel?
I have never considered that the Proverbs were in opposition to the Gospel. Just as Jesus said he came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it, I think Proverbs give us a basis (I liked Cyndi’s remarks about common sense). Just as each of us matures in our faith as we go through our life’s journey, I feel mankind as whole evolves in its understanding of God’s love for us. Jesus is God’s greatest demonstration of His love for us. At the Proverbs level, we weren’t there yet. If we had been, Jesus wouldn’t have needed to come and die for us.
Good to see you, Deanna. Enjoy those wedding plans…oh yes, some can be rather cumbersome, I’m sure your help is very much appreciated.
What a good point you make about presenting problems, giving time for individuals to pray for guidance and discernment, and then moving on to discussion in board and council meetings. As Dee modeled, this is a good sequence and puts the Lord where He belongs in the process.
Deanna, That is a wonderful thought about church board meetings! Nice to see you back. Whenever you are able to pop in, that’s a bonus to us 🙂
2. How do you solve the conundrum that sometimes Proverbs seem to feel like a works-oriented religion, saying, “God will bless me if I…” when we know He blesses us simply because we are His? Do Proverbs oppose the Gospel?
I hate to admit this, but I have not really ever given the thought of any part of the bible contradicting itself. It’s because before this blog I didn’t know about religiosity versus the gospel. I am a baby in bible even though I have known the Lord my whole life! But, as I have been reading, I have wondered the harshness of some of the versus; this may be what Dee is referring to? For example…”Disaster pursues sinners, but the righteous are rewarded with good.” (Proverbs 13:21 ESV) I am a sinner, so there is no hope? I will have disaster pursue me always? I honestly don’t know how to answer this question.
I think it is helpful to know that both sinners and the righteous are sinners, but the righteous have come to Christ for forgiveness and “sinners” in proverbs have not. There is a longing now, in the righteous, to please God, even though they often fail.
1. What thoughts do you have about the above and why?
This will be an interesting week! Many of the Proverbs are riddles and they can be hard to understand, and I have erred in the past by seeing some as promises, but they are not. I’ve also wondered about Solomon writing these proverbs because toward the later part of his life, he didn’t seem to follow his own good advice? He married all these women and they influenced him with idolatry.
2. How do you solve the conundrum that sometimes Proverbs seem to feel like a works-oriented religion, saying, “God will bless me if I…” when we know He blesses us simply because we are His? Do Proverbs oppose the Gospel?
My thoughts are similar to what Cyndi posted…Proverbs, to me, seem like sitting at a wise person’s feet, listening to godly advice. Practical, common-sense instruction. Like the proverbs about nagging – when I nag my husband, it’s as annoying to him as water dripping. So if I stop to ponder that, I may decide that nagging doesn’t accomplish anything.
There’s a lot of proverbs about the tongue which give good advice to govern your relationships with other people. I would say Proverbs do not oppose the gospel, because God gives grace and offers forgiveness when I act foolishly, but Proverbs invite me to be open to receive instruction and good advice…yet, I live in a fallen world, so even if I could live-out every proverb, it doesn’t guarantee a trouble, pain-free life.
1. What thoughts do you have on the above and why? Well. My first thoughts are how incredibly GRATEFUL, once more, I am to have this Spirit drenched forum and Dee’s Spirit led leadership! Thank you Jesus! Without even giving it much thought, I now realize that for many years I’ve shied away from Proverbs. Very early on in my walk with Christ, someone suggested reading a Proverb a day throughout every month and I did indeed get in that habit for quite a few years. As the years rolled by and life got HARD I realized that I was becoming more than a little disgruntled and uncomfortable with Proverbs. Of course, my approach to Proverbs was not seeking CHRIST therein! In fact, my reading swung between being mechanical and actually praying the Proverbs – indeed underneath it all clinging to the “if, then” approach to Proverbs. How many of our marraiges would thrive on that approach?????? I’ll do this – now you are obligated to do that!! Where’s the graceful space for LOVE? And deeds of kindness and redemption that flow from that love?? Well. Already this morning it’s been good to seek the Lord and to desire a reset within my heart as to this precious portion of His Word! Amen.
Another lovely part of the introduction was the song and the video. I was mesmerized. Oh, I need to sing this every day…..change my heart O God…change my heart O God….may I be like You. I was captured by the visuals of the potter and the clay…..his hands messy with the clay….steady and purposeful while the clay is spinning, spinning….though we don’t see the potter’s eyes, clearly his eyes and his hands are continually upon the clay throughout the shaping, shaping, spinning, spinning…..even this very morning as I awakened very early in the darkness and lay upon my bed…..I felt the spinning, spinning of my life……I cried out to God…..and yet still felt the spinning…..then I saw this video. My heart was melted. I felt like that weaned child upon the mother’s breast. Calm. The Potter has His Hands, His eyes upon me…..even when my world is spinning. Indeed, the spinning is a part of the shaping process! It’s well with my soul. The visual of those hands drew me back to Genesis 2:7….oh, the intimacy there. “Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.”
Oh Jackie, you whole post is enlightening and encouraging! Such a good point that, even while we are being shaped on that Potter’s wheel, and our whole world is spinning, the Potter’s hands are always on us, as are His eyes. That is where the security and safety are. Not in what the Potter is doing in our lives…but in Him. Graham Cooke says, “there is no security is what God is DOING in your life…there is only security in WHO He IS.” for “He will throw us into circumstances beyond us, so that our only hope is that His great heart will sustain us.”
Jackie, I love your illustration of the potter spinning the clay being like us. Last night (early in the night) I too lay awake spinning, spinning with cares of this life. But God IS the Potter and “indeed, the spinning is part of the shaping process!” Thank you for bringing the video to life with your practical application. I hadn’t actually watched the video before you mentioned it so I would have missed the blessing. Now the song and the spinning wheel is going round and round in my head.
“clearly his eyes and his hands are continually upon the clay throughout the shaping, shaping, spinning, spinning”
Jackie, this caught me…thank you for posting it; such rich, comforting, thought provoking words. Although to us (i.e., the clay) we are spinning round and round, being shaped this way and that, pushed and prodded in form, smoothed and expanded, etc….all part of His plan in shaping us into what and who He would have us be. Our creative Lord is continually working upon/with us…never leaving us unattended, never without plan or purpose.
Good point about living in a fallen world.
2. Read Luke 15:1-3 and explain the context of the parable of the prodigal sons.
What strikes me here is that Jesus is attractive to “the tax collectors and sinners”. It’s funny really, the label of ‘sinners’, as if it’s a distinction because it is an all-inclusive term! But Jesus attracts those who identify themselves as ‘less than’ or looked down upon by society. They draw near to Him—that so impresses upon me here! Am I attractive, welcoming, magnetic—to those who feel unworthy? (had more here, but editing–may share later!)
With the tax collectors and sinners, those who identify themselves as the ‘least’, are the Pharisees, who are the opposite end of the spectrum—piously believing they are the “best” and could never be considered ‘lost’.
2. How do you solve the conundrum that sometimes Proverbs seem to feel like a works- oriented religion, saying, “God will bless me if I…..” when we know He blesses us simply because we are His? Do Proverbs oppose the gospel?
I LOVE the word “conundrum” – thanks for choosing it!! Once again, in preparing my heart for this study this week my ESV Study Bible introduction to Proverbs was packed with helpful thoughts for pondering. This one especially blessed my heart and as I read the suggested two Psalms a whole lot just sort of “clicked”. Amen! “The connection of Proverbs to salvation history can be seen more fully from noticing how Psalms 111-112 work together: Psalm 111, a hymn of praise, celebrates the great works of the Lord that further His redemptive purpose for his people, while Psalm 112 is a wisdom psalm, looking very much like Proverbs set to music.” While I’ve long known that of course Proverbs CANNOT oppose the gospel, reading these two Psalms, a praise and “gospel” Psalm followed up by a “wisdom” Psalm, helped enormously in laying the groundwork for digging into this week’s study!
That is so interesting, Jackie. I looked at them — didn’t know that — and thought “That is worthy of a study in itself!”
2. Read Luke 15:1-3 and explain the context of the parable of the prodigal sons.
Verse 1 says that “tax collectors and sinners” were all gathering around Jesus to hear Him. However, the Pharisees and teachers of the law were “muttering”, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.” Apparently, they did not approve; they thought that if Jesus was really a man of God, He would not want to associate with these kinds of people. The Pharisees didn’t socialize with tax collectors and “sinners”. Jesus knew their thoughts and He then began to tell parables. Through parables, Jesus is going to show how God feels about sinners.
3. Read Luke 15:11-32 and comment on anything that stands out to you and why?
The first thing that stands out to me is that the young son decided to go back to his father because he was starving. It doesn’t say that he regretted his actions, or felt badly about hurting his father. Physical need is driving him to go back. When he returns, it strikes me that he must have been dirty and smelly, but the father has the best robe put on him immediately. He doesn’t say, “get yourself cleaned up first”. In the same way, God doesn’t tell us to clean up our act first before we can come to Him. The older brother, who outwardly seemed so good and obedient – his heart is full of anger and resentment. He tells his father “I’ve been slaving for you all these years”. Oh that is convicting. Do I have that attitude at times, that serving others is having to slave, a chore, a drudgery? It’s that ‘what about me’ attitude? I know the point Jesus was trying to make was to make the Pharisees see themselves in the older brother…so self-righteous and looking down on his sinful brother. Yet, today it still speaks to us/me, to see ourselves in the story.
Dee – getting into the body of this week’s lesson…..one of your quotes really had me reeling: “The health and wealth gospel preys on the desperate – it has permeated Africa and the prisons.” I had NO IDEA about Africa…..I am really anticipating taking the time to listen to the suggested teaching from Redeemer on this. I DID know a bit personally about this whole problem in the prisons and my heart has ached to see it. I do so much see it with the ladies we minister to here in Baltimore. What has really broken my heart over the years is that these ladies are ALL desperate – and rightly so! – just as we all find ourselves to be sooner or later in life. Nonetheless, that doesn’t always lead to repentance and a changed life. The constant temptation for ALL OF US is to want the gifts oh so much more than the Giver. 🙁 I think you have made a vital observation that where there is incredible desperation, that temptation is HUGE.
I have written before of my dear nephew who is in prison in Wisconsin (for many years to come yet). The total destruction and chaos and sin of his life eventually (after a good while in prison) led him to the cross….to Christ. Talk about a transformed life! Yes, it DOES happen! He is so in love with Jesus……and His Word…..and His people. He has been blessed with a shepherd’s heart and his life truly speaks to me of Paul’s words in Galatians 2:20 “I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.” He has written to me with a broken heart of some of the “wolves in sheep’s clothing” behind prison walls……the spiritual “leaders” who preach another gospel – indeed the health and wealth gospel is very compelling to those who are behind bars for years of their lives. If you are reading this would you pray for Cliff? He is our brother in Christ…..touching lives and ministering where we will never be able to go. Thankfully. 🙂
Jackie, your comments about the problems in the prisons with the temptation to be drawn to the “health and wealth gospel” makes the problem come to life. So sad! What a wonderful testimony about Cliff! I will pray for him, definitely!
I don’t know if I knew this about Cliff — I too developed a heart for prison because of a nephew. How wonderful he is in love with Jesus now. May the Lord be with him and use him too.
2. How do you solve the conundrum that sometimes Proverbs seem to feel like a works-oriented religion, saying, “God will bless me if I…” when we know He blesses us simply because we are His? Do Proverbs oppose the Gospel?
Oh no..proverbs doesn’t oppose the Gospel-it is Gospel centered showing us Him for He is Wisdom. He gave us Proverbs because He loves us! Off the top of my head I thought of Proverbs 1:7 which says, “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction. I see ‘fear’ as being in ‘awe’ of God. That should be how we approach Proverbs-it starts there. I truly believe if we know Him we will be in awe of Him. While we will stumble we won’t despise His instruction if we are in awe of Him first. Wisdom humbles us and melts our hearts for Him.
We are His no matter what we do or don’t do right-that should melt us to turn from our sin and listen and obey. If we read Proverbs and find ourselves despising Wisdom, we most likely think our ways are higher. We are fools, and perhaps we have to consider whether or not our hearts are truly His.
2/3
the older brother would not even enter the party! I get the feeling that he was all work and no play, he says to the father “you have never given me a goat for a party” but I get the feeling he had never asked!. He was living his life as if his work was all that mattered to the father and I think that the fathers money was really all that mattered to the son. He was working his way into wealth. He would have not had a party for his friends…that was HIS goat that they would “waste” I lived my life like this for way to long, I wanted to “look the part” of a “good christian woman” and was trying so hard to be perfect that all my joy was gone. Big brothers don’t see their need for the father they only see what they are doing for Him, and that is a very frustrating place to be, because we will NEVER do enough to earn our way into a relationship with Him.
My heart breaks for the father when he says, “all I have is yours” can you just imagine what he must have felt when the big brother was fussing over the lack of a GOAT when EVERTHING HE WAS he had already offered His son. He says “you are always with me”….isn’t being WITH me, being in relationship with me, enough???
Isn’t that so much like us, so much like way to many people in churches sitting in pews soaking and souring in their brine of “goodness” when what Jesus really wants for us is our Joy, our freedom, our party! honesty, If I did not love Jesus, im not sure there are many Christians I would want to be around. I think Jesus felt the same way about the very people who where supposed to represent God here on earth! I can just see him face palming and shaking his head and thinking “no wonder these people don’t want my Father! The very ones supposed to represent HIM are only serving them selves.
Cyndi, hugs to you! You are so guileless. Your honesty is refreshing and endearing; a true Nathaniel! I’m glad God brought you out of your Pharisaical ways! I am a recovering Pharisee as well!
I loved this Cyndi, most especially this:
“He would have not had a party for his friends…that was HIS goat that they would “waste”
and this:
” honesty, If I did not love Jesus, im not sure there are many Christians I would want to be around.”
I am praying right now to better understand the celebration…To borrow from Yancey…to be a better Grace Dispenser.
whenever I write anything I think about you, how would I respond to such a loss! im always afraid I will say something that may sound unfeeling or something that would hurt you. I would just hate myself if I ever did anything that could make your walk any harder!!! I just have no filter!
thanks guys 🙂 I find myself getting more and more anti church and that is not OK! I just get so very frustrated with the pretense of leaders that feel that they need to lead from strength instead of weakness and knowlege instead of relationship. I got to say its WAY easier to write a sermon every week then it is to live with people in their mess! trying to find a healthy balance….
I am not sure what you mean, cyndi, when you say “they need to lead from strength instead of weakness and knowledge instead of relationship”. I’d love more of your thoughts on this. As a pastor’s wife, I see the weakness in my husband and also know that relationships are crucial to ministry. Also, pastors live messy lives as well. However, I am guessing you might mean that sermons need to be well prepared – research and well thought through rather than just “winging it”. With that, I definitely agree.
Diane i think you may have misread Cyndi, she said ” the pretense of leaders that feel that they need to lead from strength”
That missing word changes things up a bit 🙂
Ah, thanks, Chris, for pointing out my misreading of Cyndi’s comment. Sorry, Cyndi! It didn’t make sense when I read it wrong. I think I “get” it now. You don’t like the pretense! You want leaders to lead from weakness and relationships. Yes, leaders need to get involved in the messiness of living messy people.
glad you two figured that out 🙂 I thought that i had wrote it wrong 🙂
1. What thoughts do you have on the above and why? Oh, so grateful for Dee’s continued encouragement and leading of this little flock out here in cyber space. I’m reduced to tears with the potter video and song. Such a paradox of his tender and powerful hands on our lives.
About a year and a half ago I found this beautiful link of a potter. Dave Blakesly has such a wonderful way of talking from a shepherd’s heart as he forms and then fires the clay. I began corresponding with he and his wife, asking questions about the process as I pondered its application in my life. And then, as only God can orchestrate, he came from his home in Colorado to a little church just a mile from my home here in Montana, and my husband and I got to witness this magnificent artisan’s work and be deeply touched by his wise words. I now drink my morning coffee from one of his beautiful, beautiful mugs, as a reminder that I am clay in my Potter’s loving, wise hands. Here’s a 4 minute link that is only an exerpt from his entire presentation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXWPywbZ840
And this is the link to the entire (53 min.) presentation. (For our adult children last Christmas, I purchased pieces of Dave’s pottery and tucked this DVD in with a prayer) : http://dod.org/programs/the-potter-reflections-of-a-master-artisan/
Oh Nila, thank you so much for sharing this link…I’m 23 minutes in and it is excellent! What a special Christmas gift your children received…:)
and it only gets better…thanks, Nila.
Nila-I just watched the 4 min clip you gave and then another one I saw on the right–“heart of the matter”–SO GOOD!
Luke 15:1-3 “This fellow welcomes sinners and eats with them.” What a statement about self-importance. A good reminder that as members of a church, we are not a country club trying to segregate ourselves from the riff raff, but rather a charity hospital, dedicated to welcoming all who have a need for healing.
Luke 15:11-32 Probably one of the most important things for a parent of an adult child to know is whether that child is OK. When the younger son left, the Father was left with anxiety about his son’s well-being. Seeing him return, answered that long asked question. At that moment, it did not matter what the son had done with the money/inheritance, but whether his son was emotionally, physically, and spiritually OK. (This is the first thought on my mind when I talk with my son who lives a continent away from me.)
The eldest son, who unquestionably worked hard for his father, nonetheless worked out of obligation, the obligation to gain a bountiful inheritance. This is not the correct attitude to have. So, even though he did every thing right, in his actions, his attitude was not appropriate; in fact, it was evil. He had to be taught that the party given in honor of his younger brother was being given simply because he returned home, not because of what he did. The older son did not understand that it is the relationship that is important.
2. Read Luke 15:1-3 and explain the context of the parable of the prodigal sons.
In verse one, we are told that the Pharisees and teachers of the law were bothered that Jesus associated with “sinners” and even ate with them. The Pharisees were always careful to stay “clean” by avoiding certain people and situations. Jesus came to offer salvation to sinners and to show them that God loves them. Jesus continued going to those who needed him, not considering his reputation at all.
The Prodigal Son parable, as well as the adjacent parables of the Lost Coin and the Lost Sheep, have as their main point that God deeply loves us all.
3. Read Luke 15:11-32 and comment on anything that stands out to you and why?
I have now come to identify with the “lost” son, but I used to always relate to the “older brother.” It has always been easier to resent God’s love and graciousness for others whom I considered worse sinners than myself. (Whew — self-righteousness!) That was because I hadn’t truly seen how sinful I am and how great God’s love is toward all of us. Once I have come to the better perspective, my heart is filled with such love in response to God’s love that suddenly there is plenty of room for other sinners!
2. How do you solve the conundrum that sometimes Proverbs seem to feel like a works-oriented religion, saying, “God will bless me if I…” when we know He blesses us simply because we are His? Do Proverbs oppose the Gospel?
I’ve been thinking about this since I first read it this morning. I have read others’ responses and I too don’t see opposition of the gospel in Proverbs. I think of Proverbs similar to that of the 10 commandments…guides provided for our well-being and in our best interest to follow, guides that if followed help to provide the best life possible. Similar to not seeing the 10 commandments as “rules” or restrictions, I prefer to view the Proverbs as the Lord’s words of wisdom given through Solomon for my benefit.
Mary- love the part that He loves me because He is love.
Lizzy – love your explination on the gospel/ proverbs.
1. I also pray I seek to love God for God not for blessings. Very convicting. One way to keep this in check would be to have a prayer life full of thankfulness not of asking for…
2. I dont think it opposes the gospel. We know in our hearts that the big battle has been Won. The smaller battles may not turn out like we like but they are a good guide on how to live and love God.
2. We all have been lost and need a savior from our righteous acts and/or our immoral acts.
3. I love the fathers love for his sons.
4. Notes: they both want his things, don’t be your own savior, love how he lays it out there so clearly.. God through Jesus Christs death gives us a righteous record and we live for Him. When we receive the father through the son everything is ours.
I don’t mean to get off-topic, but as I looked at Luke 15 today, I was struck a little that the Father let the younger son go. I feel like if it were me, I would have said ‘no you can’t have your inheritance yet, and you’re not going anywhere!’. I’m not saying that would be the right thing to say (obviously, it’s not), it’s just interesting to me that the Father had the wisdom to ‘let go’–without any guarantee of his son coming back. Did he know that this son would have to figure it out for himself? I realize it’s a parable! I’m just thinking out loud here–and trying to hear what He is telling me in this. I see such an act of releasing and trusting on the part of the Father, and I don’t think I ever really sat with that thought before.
Lizzy – I so love what you saw in the father here…..and it led me to remember that even as the father released his son and sent him on his way with his inheritance it HAD to be with a shattered heart….for in the Jewish culture, to ask for your inheritance while your father was still alive was to as much as say “I wish you were dead”. Can you imagine?
jackie–your wisdom amazes me. You take my simple thoughts and bring such depth–and cause me to dig and ponder deeper! Now I am seeing more–how yes, our Father, releases even us–He does not force us to stay with him, he does not control or coerce…but His love for us never wavers in the separation, and he patiently awaits and rejoices at our return. Yes, he had to release Christ–and yet, knew he would also welcome Him back at his right hand…amazing how a passage I have “studied” so many times still brings fresh application. So thankful for you Jackie, so thankful He brought you here~
I’ve heard Keller say it isn’t a teaching on parenting, and it is good, as you realize, to see it is a parable. Flush that out for us — what does that signify?
Though a parable is a symbolic story with fictional, rather than actual, characters it does teach a spiritual truth. We can certainly trust that Jesus took great care in His choice of a father and his sons to be the fictional, though representative characters! Obviously, with the whole idea of inheritance, the fictional father is certain to one day die – unlike our eternal Father in heaven! Still, Jesus used the RELATIONSHIP of the father to his sons to illustrate the critical nature of the HEART. For isn’t it in our most intimate (family?) earthly relationships that our heart is hard to hide?? Just my initial thoughts on that question…..but as always, great questions lead to heart checks! (or they should lead to that….).
Lizzy…..I think that question was actually for you, but it just piqued my interest!
How do you solve the conundrum that sometimes Proverbs seem to feel like a works-oriented religion, saying, “God will bless me if I…” when we know He blesses us simply because we are His? Do Proverbs oppose the Gospel? Proverbs gives the reassurance to relax in the way that seems contrary to the heart’s desire. I desire to take and bind what I want and to keep it for I want to secure my own happiness. But the Proverbs say the opposite – trust God’s way, trust wisdom’s way and you will find that things are even better than when you sought to make them great yourself. This is not opposing the Gospel but setting up the Gospel. While my physical circumstances may not mirror the Proverbs (or may) my spiritual response to His insight, His counsel, His guidance, His reproof, against the way of my evil heart, is rest. Many (all?) the “blessings” spelled out in Proverbs just signify REST. To not do it my way, to do it HIS way. I also align heart intent with following wisdom. I do not follow wisdom in Proverbs to get what is “on the other side” but out of response of TRUST in Him and His way. While I may not get “bigger and better” (or may) I feel like I have because He has, in His infinite wisdom, given what is best for me to draw close to Him and above all glorify Him. I trust Him, He gives…whatever and however He deems to His honor and glory!
Jill, I really like your insight here about Proverbs…that the blessings spelled out just signify REST. Who doesn’t want rest?! Yet when I try to do it my way, manipulating and trying to control circumstances, there is none.
Setting up the gospel so we can rest. Wonderful, Jill!
4. Notes on Keller’s sermon on the Parable of the Prodigal Son
The parable of the Prodigal Son was not mainly about the younger brother, it was about the older brother. Jesus was surrounded with two types of people – sinner types and moral types. It was to the Pharisees that Jesus told this parable – in fact, three parables: the lost sheep, the lost son, and the lost coin.
The younger brother is like the sinner-types around Jesus, while the older brother is like the Pharisees. The parable ends with the father addressing the older son. This parable was meant for the Pharisees.
Both sons were alienated from the Father’s heart – both were lost. The younger brother just wanted the father’s money and things. But in the end, the older brother doesn’t really love the father. His concern is how the father is using the estate. Both loved the father’s things and not the father.
The older brother was completely compliant. There are two ways to be your own savior – one is to be very irreligious and the other is to be very religious. The older brother claims to have been with the father. Both are alienated from the father, and the father has to come invite them into the feast. The younger brother comes to the feast, but the older brother does not. He was saying to God, “I have been so good, and you are not doing what I want you to do.”
Religion says “I obey; therefore I am accepted.” The Gospel says “I am accepted because of what Jesus has done for me; therefore I obey.” Those who believe the Gospel say “God gives us a righteous record, and then we live for Him.” Then you have the knowledge that you are the delight and joy of the only person in the universe whose opinion really matters. Gospel believers obey God just to get more of God. Gospel believers want to resemble God.
Comments: Earlier I said that I used to identify with the older brother, but now I relate to the younger brother. Actually I guess I must admit that there is some of each of the two brothers in me.
5. Which one do you think is the older son, and why?
I am just guessing, but I think it is the figure to the far right, standing stiffly and looking down on the younger brother. His clothing sort of matches the father’s clothing (because he had everything the father had). I think I can detect a condescending disapproval on his face. 🙂
That’s my thinking too.
To trust that He is in charge, caring for all things in my life, is the most difficult thing i do. I can’t do anything for His grace and mercy but trust. I am both the prodigal son and the son that stayed home ~ I will work to trust each day, no matter how difficult some days. Thank you ladies for all your words ~ you encourage me and others. Blessings.
So good to have you Melinda!
Welcome Melinda! Your words here are brimming with LIFE! You have already given back the encouragement that you speak of receiving here……so lovely. Whenever someone new to the blog pops in, I’m reminded of how many are out there reading silently along…..as I did for maybe a year or so! So glad that you have joined us here. 🙂
4. Watch this ten minute video from Tim Keller and share your notes and comments.: Thank you Dee for sharing/suggesting this video. It made me look into the mirror of the Word, re-examine my own heart and re-evaluate my motives. I also viewed the longer version of the Prodigal God found at this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IEBBmfbirw.
5. Which one do you think is the older son, and why?: The one standing off with a red robe (like the father), not embracing the son (unlike the father) with a critical look on his face.
Thanks for giving that link for the longer video.
4. Watch this ten minute video from Tim Keller and share your notes and comments: Thank you Dee for sharing/suggesting this video. Made me look in the mirror of the Word , re-examine my own heart and motives. I also viewed the longer version entitled “The Prodigal God” @ the following link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IEBBmfbirw.
5. Which one do you think is the older son, and why?: The one standing dressed in a red robe (pretending to look like the father), but not embracing the returned lost son (in reality, unlike the father), standing aloof with a critical look on his face.
2. Read Luke 15:1-3 and explain the context of the parable of the prodigal sons.
The Pharisees were judging Jesus; they didn’t think he should be “hanging” around with sinners.
3. Read Luke 15:11-32 and comment on anything that stands out to you and why?
he younger son has that “duh!” moment when he realizes that his dad isn’t so dumb after all; that he should have listened and he wouldn’t have been desperate as he came to be. I’ve recently thought about that moment when we all think this…usually in our early to mid twenties. It happened for me when I was about 25 or so. It’s the V-8 bonk to the head kind of realization! I also would love to do research on maturation of the brain at this time of life. It is my thought that the exact moment your brain is “developed” is at that precise moment of realization that your parents weren’t as dumb as you thought they were!
🙂
3. Read Luke 15:11-32 and comment on anything that stands out to you and why?
My husband used Luke 15 and Timothy Keller’s book The Prodigal God to lead a series of sermons and Bible studies a while ago. The book is excellent and I highly recommend it. It shocked a few people that to see themselves in the elder brother, but some younger brothers in the congregation also felt welcomed and drawn to the extravagant, utterly “spending all” giving love of the father (who represents God the Father). I was also fascinated by the analogy Keller drew in the book that there is a missing son, an elder Brother (Jesus) who loved the Father and his erring brother so much that he left His Father’s home to go in search of the younger brother (us) and bring us back.
Diane – wow, I so love hearing some of the fruits of your husband’s teaching on this passage! Marvelous. 🙂 To God be the glory!
3. Read Luke 15:11-32 and comment on anything that stands out to you and why: when reading this familiar passage again this morning, I reminded myself that this parable was directed to the Pharisees, as we have been noting. I backed up to remember that Jesus told his disciples that the general purpose of parables (both the parables directed to the crowds AND the parables directed to the Pharisees) was “because seeing they do not see. and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.” It’s so fascinating to me to see that Jesus quotes from Isaiah – in fact the quote comes from when Isaiah saw the vision of the Lord and said “here am I , send me”. (Isaiah 6). But back to Luke! This morning my heart was so moved by the father’s response to the older son in vs. 31….”Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours.” If this is the Pharisees’ being addressed, there is incredible TENDERNESS for them at this moment…..”Son….” so very intimate and gracious. To me this looks like an amazing moment when the heart of Jesus is wooing the Pharisees……and we can be pretty sure that at least a few of the Pharisees and leaders did come to faith in Christ (Nicodemus?) eventually. Even in this moment it looks to me like Jesus is saying to the Pharisees….come….come and join the party!
Also…..it struck me that the father’s heart must have been even more broken by the older son ……after all, the younger son was at least openly rebellious and perhaps much could be chalked up to youthful folly. The older son, by contrast, has just been pretending all along. Had the father suspected this all along? Perhaps. Or perhaps this hard hearted response of the older son came out of left field and blew him away. Either way…..how grievous it is to be betrayed by those we thought loved us. This cold and calculating heart scares me more than the rebellious one. Et tu, Brute? Why has this, perhaps most famous quote from Shakespeare endured?? Because we all GET it. This kind of betrayal goes to our core.
2. Read Luke 15:1-3 and explain the context of the parable of the prodigal sons.
Jesus was welcoming of all, this bugged the pharisees and religious teachers. They questioned who He was, His authority, etc. in allowing association with such sinful people.
3. Read Luke 15:11-32 and comment on anything that stands out to you and why?
v. 16, “no one gave him anything”
The son was not given even a pod provided to a pig at this point in his life, yet earlier his Father gave him 1/2 of his fortune. Where he thought he would have “it all,” he had nothing.
v. 17, “when he finally came to his senses”
At his lowest point was when he saw with greatest clarity.
v. 19, “no longer worthy of being called your son. Please take me on as a hired servant.”
I notice the shift in demeanor…the son has moved from a sense of entitlement to one of gratitude and appreciation.
v. 20, “filled with love and compassion”
v. 28, “His father came out and begged him.”
The deep and abiding love of the Father for His children regardless of where they are at.
v. 24, “So the party began.”
I think of the celebratory spirit…no judgment, but joy, pure joy.
1. What thoughts do you have about the above and why?
Honestly this subject matter dredges up mire for me. Suffering has led me to a deeper respect for and belief in the sovereignty of God, a deeper understanding of His love for me, but when the storm came I realized that I had a lot rattling around in my head, some of the seeming promises of protection…that I had misunderstood them. Without being aware of it, I did feel entitled.
I still don’t have a neat place inside my mind to file a lot of the verses in Proverbs. I suppose the desire for a neat filing system is part of my pride and adds to my anxiety. I do feel childlike right now, I don’t understand and I know I need help.
Chris – “Honestly this subject matter dredges up mire for me.” Your words here paint a picture. One that I can relate to. Because of the depth of your suffering and your steadfast faithfulness, like gold, through it all I would so value your insights and questions as we study Proverbs. And your feeling childlike is a beautiful thing ……it reminds me that Jesus said that’s how we MUST come to Him. My most recent storms, like yours, left me with so much more of a trust in the sovereignty of God. There’s no real explanation for that except it is all of HIM and it is His gift!
Chris ~ Your words reverberate with me and I so appreciate this: Suffering has led me to a deeper respect for and belief in the sovereignty of God, a deeper understanding of His love for me, but when the storm came I realized that I had a lot rattling around in my head, some of the seeming promises of protection…that I had misunderstood them. Without being aware of it, I did feel entitled……
My prayer in suffering has often been, “Please, Lord, don’t let my heart become hardened.” For there are times when cynicism creeps in and the mocking voice of the Enemy seeks to derail me.
I have this quote, cut from a newsletter I received a few months ago. I’ve kept it here on my kitchen counter so that I read it often:
“I always draw strength and encouragement from my ‘old friend’ Ezekiel Hopkins (1634-1690). He wrote this: ‘Nothing comes to pass without our Heavenly Father’s permission. By this almighty providence, God overrules and sways all things to His own glory. There is nothing that comes to pass but God has a purpose in it. Though the world seems to run at random in blind confusion and rude disorder, yet God governs it to make perfect harmony out of all the seeming discords!’ “
And yes, Jackie, how those recent storms have left me too, with more of a trust in the sovereignty of God.
I love this real, honest answer, Chris. Our understanding truly IS on the level of a small child, compared to God (at BEST!) I can totally relate to what you have said here.
Chris, you have taught us so much having come to cling to the sovereignty of God in your terrible storm. You have much to model still. The fact that proverbs cannot be neat because they are maxims and not promises is something you could help us with! What do you think?
I am praying Dee, thank you for this encouragement.
I think part of the reason we misinterpret, the way we want so much to view certain verses as promises, is our desire to maintain our illusion of control. A lie from the enemy.
We so love some of the good gifts that we loose sight of the truth that all of them are to point us to the Giver.
This is me stumbling about, but somehow this is bound up with:
John 12:25
Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life
2. Read Luke 15:1-3 and explain the context of the parable of the prodigal sons.
Before Jesus at that moment were the “preeminently wicked” (Amplified Bible) sinners and the Pharisees and scribes who were muttering because Jesus received them.
3. Read Luke 15:11-32 and comment on anything that stands out to you and why?
My thoughts went to the fact that the Father gave the prodigal the money and the freedom to pursue sin, to turn away from the Father and suffer what that would bring. I thought of Barbra Duguid’s book Extravagant Grace, which I think I ought to revisit. I struggled when I read it, with the thought that God gives us the things that we use to turn away from Him, here that idea is again.
“You have a heavenly Father who would never let this sin and weakness remain in you if he did not plan to overrule it for your good and for his own glory.”
― Barbara R. Duguid, Extravagant Grace: God’s Glory Displayed in Our Weakness
Hosea 2:8 For she has not noticed, understood, or realized that it was I [the Lord God] Who gave her the grain and the new wine and the fresh oil, and Who lavished upon her silver and gold which they used for Baal and made into his image.
See Chris — how wise you are? This is wonderful.
This is great, Chris. I love your ponderings about the fact that the father gave the prodigal the money and freedom to pursue sin. I am not familiar with Barbra Duguid. Sounds interesting! As a parent of adult children, I sometimes wonder if I am “enabling” [in the bad sense] them by giving them things they ask for. Yet it seems this is what the father is doing. I know this is not a parable about parenting techniques, but it is much to ponder.
Read Luke 15:1-3 and explain the context of the parable of the prodigal sons. There are sinners gathering to Jesus and the Pharisees and scribes are judging Him for it in ESV verse 3 starts with SO. This means there was a cause for what is happening next. SO Jesus told them the parables. God opposes the proud but gives Grace to the humble (this is in James and 1Peter in quotation marks, where is the “original”?) Where did I hear it said that Christ gave parables to the prideful and gospel to the already broken? I don’t know if that is truly accurate but it makes sense and it is how He can break pride – through story. he did it with David and with many others. This is the gospel as Keller summarizes it – to realize you are more sinful that you ever imagined but more loved than you ever dared to hope but the latter cannot be realized without the former….?
3. Read Luke 15:11-32 and comment on anything that stands out to you and why? I never before noticed in v.14 that a severe famine struck the land after he spent everything. This made his already dire situation worse…. And a ‘solution’ more difficult. This reminds me of the Bridegroom leading the Bride into the wilderness. Our hard hearts need to be in a place where we desperately need Him, so that He can lead us back to Him. This is grace I confess I still feel immature and “un spiritual” when I find myself “in the wilderness” again thinking that “surely by now I do not need this, Lord, surely by now I can desire You for You and not need to experience challenge and thirst to turn and cling to You!” But , no, I am human and He is gracious to give what is needed and not what is wanted…. It is not failure to find myself in difficulty, it is cause for rejoicing because it is Him leading me to where I need to be (and even if not, even if it is an attack then it is still grace and joy because He is with me and this is good – can we ever revel in shade if we have not felt the heat?!)
Jill,
Thank you for this post: “It is not failure to find myself in difficulty…” It sure can feel like failure. But then, I look on Him who loves my soul. The desert makes me thirsty for Him in the dry and weary land. And He often reminds me of that “better country” where there will be no more deserts.
How like your thoughts are to those of Chris….the same Spirit says the same thing.
‘Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding….” This has been my life vs. for many years. As I see HIM work things out I have been more able to relax mid storm, knowing that HES GOT THIS. the last 2 weeks have been a bit crazy and I can honestly say that I was so relaxed about the whole thing! 2 days before we were to leave on a vacation that had been planed for 6 months with family I was in a car accident that left $7000 of damage on the van that we were driving 3000 miles, it also put me in shock and I was in the hospital for a few hours (im fine 🙂 praise God!) I sent out a prayer request on fb and I was surrounded by peace, we rented a van, I was not in pain (a miracle considering my back issues) at all the entire trip. I FELT the prayers that were generated from the accident all vacation!
I have to share this because you will all laugh, the next day as I was trying to get my van out of impound I was driving my daughters van and it RAN OUT OF GAS ON A MAIN HIGHWAY!! when we got home from vacation our pool had lost 3 feet of water and our youngest bedroom floor filled with water do to a storm and clogged gutters, then my oldest daughter, Abby, dislocated her shoulder (will need PT and most likely surgery) both my mother and Pauls mother had eye surgery today and our elderly neighbors who really need Jesus really need help because one is having surgery on Thursday and I really feel called to go with them…..
And as I write this I am laughing! Because I have a crazy “peace that passes all understanding” kind of peace! (disclaimer, i may just have finally really lost it, time will tell:-))
the pool wont be fixed till July….BUT I HAVE A POOL AND CLEAN WATER ALL THE TIME…the van wont be fixed until the mid July BUT IT WILL BE FIXED AND WE HAVE AN EXTRA CAR…Abby will be recovering at our house all of July BUT SHE WILL RECOVER! My ministry job starts to ramp up end of July and GOD IS SO GOOD, HE worked it all out…..and I did not stress like a mad women throughout the whole thing 🙂
and then there was that time when my 13 year old ran away with no shoes on because I told her she couldnt me on her ipod all day…..
Wow, Cyndi. You have had a lot of things go crazy lately. I’m glad you are OK physically and God is giving peace throughout.
and she is home safe…the older brother who did the same thing at her age found her and talked her back home 🙂 older child adaption is not for sissies!!! just sayin sheeesh
Welcome Melinda!
Cyndi I love your faith perspective as you had so much going on at once!
5. I think the older son would be the one standing in red. Like him, it’s easy for us to be unaware of our need to repent and have a heart change. We sometimes watch others who turn from external sin but we all have internal sins we have to confess.
6- 9. The older son by doing good. The younger living for himself. I’m like the older son. I try to save myself from making a mistake. I find myself constantly praying for Gods direction and protection. It’s embarrassing and hard to talk about but I’m going to be real…I battle anxiety and ocd. I’m not affriad of germs like most people think when they hear ocd, but my type of ocd is I get intrusive scary thoughts I struggle to let go. As a result I avoid certain things out of fear. It’s gotton worse since pregnancy, might be hormones. It used to be smaller fears of accidentally leaving oven on and house burns down etc but recently I get scary obsessive thoughts such as fear of jail. I’m afraid of doing or saying something that would send me to jail like what If I accidentally run over a kid in street etc. as a result it makes me do a compulsion like avoid situations such as driving or I check things over and over in my head etc. Getting on here even scares as I get scared of what if I accidentally say something offensive. But I’m trusting that with God I will overcome these fears. All these are common with ocd but so still so scary and definitly a daily battle to fight. Anyone struggle with ocd or know of someone with this? Dee, your part of fear of God not meeting me is probably what it boils down to. I totally agree with that and find freedom in the part where you talk about the proverbs as another book of God showing how much He loves us. verse 3:5-6 is wonderful and a good one for me to declare when the ocd hits. It is such a reminder that I don’t need to fear for He will direct my paths. I need to let go and trust Him. Prayers appreciated as I meet with an ocd councilor this week to help me overcome this anxiety disorder.
oh sweet Natalie–I am writing down to pray for your OCD (as I’m praying for your baby-to-be!). I am so sorry for your struggle. I do have a friend who also has OCD, and I think you are likely right that your pregnancy hormones can exacerbate it. Praying for Him to calm this storm within–Isaiah 43 is my favorite for fear. He has you, He is Your Protector and Comforter. Love to you~
praying for you to find answers! I have friends who have struggled for years with OCD, some have used meds, some prayer, some natural healing with herbs and suppliments…. many causes, some physical, some spiritual, praying for you as you figure out what road to healing you need to take!
Oh, Natalie. You are so brave to be on here and share about your OCD. I can’t imagine, but it sounds really scary for sure. Praying for you.
Natalie, thank you for sharing your struggle with OCD so that we can pray for you…thankful you found a counselor and I will pray that your meeting this week goes well.
Natalie – I agree with Diane that you are so brave to share here. This is a safe place to share and it helps us so much to really get to know one another as we pray for one another and cry out to God for the issues in our lives that distress and even seem to paralyze us. You have described your struggle so vividly and I just didn’t know that much about OCD. Even reading your words I could feel my own anxiety kicking up a notch as I thought about how HARD the day to day must sometimes be…..I’ll be praying along with others here for a great support system and DR. and wisdom for the journey ahead. God’s gift of your pregnancy is delightful and I share in your joy. 🙂
4. Watch this ten minute video from Tim Keller and share your notes and comments.
I love how Keller teaches on this parable. The things that really stands out to me is that BOTH sons were alienated from the father. The father had to go out to both of them to invite them in. And in the end, the lost son is saved, and the “good son” is lost…not in spite of his goodness, but BECAUSE of his goodness. It is really, really hard to rest totally in God’s plan of salvation…to not default to my acceptance being based on my performance. Yet when I doubt His love and acceptance of me, I am, even subconsciously, thinking it is based on my performance…I’m still clinging to wrong thinking. And I will bring that into my relationships, too.
4. Watch this ten minute video from Tim Keller and share your notes and comments.
The last comment that Keller makes sums it up well…”functionally in their hearts (older brother types, religious), their standing with God is based upon their performance.” Religious have a self-salvation strategy based upon their works and performance; salvation is based upon “self” rather than Jesus. From the outside, the religious and gospel types can look just alike, it is the heart that differs…God knows what is in the heart, what is motivating thoughts and actions.
I wanted to add that both sons loved the Father for what He could provide rather than loving Him. The “bad” boy came to his senses and repented; the “good” boy remained lost.
5. Which one do you think is the older son, and why?
I think the older brother is the man in the upper left corner that is barely visible. He appears to be looking on at a distance. Why?…the older brother was interested in knowing what was going on, what all the commotion was about, and was also intent upon continuing his display of displeasure in no participation. The position of this man seems aloof, at a distance close enough to determine what is going on, but far enough to not be a part.
I think someone has a birthday today…HAPPY BIRTHDAY REBECCA! You are such a blessing here, to us! I hope you have a really wonderful day…celebrating from afar with you!