When Aron Ralston fell into a deep crevice on the mountain, a boulder tumbled after him, pinning his arm. After days, Aron realized he had to choose between his arm and his life, and so he severed his arm with his knife.
Divorce is an amputation. It cuts into each of you, into the “one” that God has joined together. So why, Jesus was asked, was divorce permitted at all? Jesus said it was because of the hardness of men’s hearts, meaning that when a hard heart breaks the marriage covenant, it may be merciful to allow the victim a divorce.
Malachi is often quoted where we read “God hates divorce,” but you must read that phrase in context, for so often this phrase has been used as a bludgeon to hammer the victims of divorce. God’s heart breaks for you! In Malachi He was THUNDERING against the men who tossed aside their wives for pagan women. He wept for those women and he wept for the men who were professing faith yet treating the “wives of their youth” treacherously. Eugene Peterson paraphrases it like this:
I hate divorce,” says the God of Israel. God-of-the-Angel-Armies says, “I hate the violent dismembering of the ‘one flesh’ of marriage.”
This was not how things were meant to be.
InThe Meaning of Marriage, Tim and Kathy Keller say that 2/3’s of couples who consider divorce, if they hang on, are happy in their marriages five years later. So often it is stubborn pride, rather than a broken covenant, that leads to divorce, and the couple will regret it for the rest of their lives.
But never will you hear me say again, the way I did when I was a know-it-all young Christian, “divorce is not in my vocabulary.” It’s in God’s vocabulary, so we must not be holier than God. God knows sometimes an amputation is necessary for life and gives exceptions, which we will study.
Our own gentle Nanci, whom I was privileged to meet and love, shares this testimony:
My first marriage was an emotionally destructive relationship…I was pelted with hurtful words and actions, disinterest, deceit; we attended counseling three different times in the 10 year relationship. I have said before, I view the end of that marriage as a blessing; had that marriage not ended, I would not be enjoying the emotionally uplifting relationship with my husband of 14+ years…my daughters would have not witnessed the loving, kind, respectful relationship they witnessed…they would not have the “family” relationship “our family” provided that they now hold and value… I reiterate…the steps are difficult and require calm, strength, and fortitude, but they will either benefit the marriage or benefit the individual.
May we have compassion, may we study these challenging and controversial passages with hearts open to what God might teach us for ourselves, our children, and our sisters and brothers in Christ.
On a personal note, I believe we must honor marriage and fight for it. Our hearts are deceitful and proud and usually divorce is regretted. Having said that, I also think that when there is unrepented and continual abuse, that it is abandonment (The Christianity Today article we will read this week takes that controversial stance) and that it takes courage and faith to separate and demand the spouse get help. Why? He or she may opt for divorce instead and you will need to trust God to be your husband. But abuse, physical or emotional, is so devastating to both the spouse and the children, and so likely to be passed to subsequent generations, that, in my opinion, separation in these situations takes the same kind of courage that Aron Ralston had in severing his arm.
Sunday Icebreaker:
1. What stands out to you from the above and why?
Monday-Wednesday Bible Study:
The prevailing teaching on marriage, beginning in Genesis, is that the two shall be one. The other commands about marriage, including divorce, flow from that central teaching.
God thunders at the men who have disregarded their holy union and instead of covering their wives with protection, have covered them with treachery. He is holding them accountable — as he did the husbands in 1 Peter 3:7.
2. Read Malachi 2:13-16
A. How are the men giving an appearance of godliness?
B. Why isn’t the Lord answering their prayers?
C. The Hebrew of verse 16 is difficult, but I do think Eugene Peterson caught it above. What is God saying?
D. If you are a victim of divorce or have a friend who is, how might this passage bring comfort?
3. In Mark 10 and Matthew 19, Jesus addresses divorce and adultery. Many Jewish men were divorcing their wives for “any cause,” even burning the toast.
A. What question in Matthew 19:3 is asked of Jesus?
B. How does Jesus go back to God’s plan for marriage in Matthew 19:4-6? What is He communicating about marriage and divorce?
C. What is the next question and answer from Jesus in Matthew 19: 7-9?
D. Challenge question: why does adultery break the marriage covenant?
E. What is the response of the disciples to this? Why, do you think?
F. What does Jesus say in Matthew 19:10-12? What does this mean and how might this be applied?
Next week, when we look at the mystery of sex (and how it parallels our relationship with Christ) we will see it is a gift and it is wrong for groups to forbid it, as the Catholic church has for priests. (1 Timothy 4:3)
4. Read 1 Corinthians 7:12-16
A. Why, according to 1 Corin. 7:12-14 should a believer stay with an unbeliever and not file for divorce?
B. What exception is made in verse 15 and why? What do you think the phrase, “not enslaved,” or “not bound” means?
C. Why is abandonment the breaking of a covenant?
5. Now here is the controversial part. I agree with the following article from Christianity Today. He defines abandonment according to the Old Testament. This article drew heat however. Please read it, summarize it, and comment on it. (Please copy and paste) http://www.agathosministries.org/Sermons111107b.pdf
Thursday-Friday Sermon by Tim Keller
6. Please listen, summarize, and comment.
http://www.gospelinlife.com/marriage-divorce-singleness-6425.html
Saturday:
7. What is your take-a-way and why?
273 comments
I’m the first one on — I have two important things to share — a thank you and a clarification.
THANK YOU! I am so thankful for your prayers this weekend. Indeed, it was my worst technical nightmare with everything from the video, sound, mikes, and even the charger at the book-table not working. But God worked through His body (your prayers, my staff on the phone, and my dear friend Twila here) to get things working. The women often had to wait, but were gracious. I talked to my soul a lot and His Spirit fell. QUICKENING. I hardly had time to read your comments that last few days and depended on you to help each other, which you did. I did skim this morning and want to comment on Kerryn’s very important question.
Clarification. Kerryn wrote:
I’m taking away confusion and hurt this week. I cannot make the connection between this week and last week in my head. Last week, looking at dealing with abuse, and this week submission. In my head it’s worlds apart and contradictory. Last week’s approach to abuse makes sense to me; but I can’t relate to submitting to abuse at all.
Kerryn — I don’t think Peter is asking wives to submit to abuse. That’s where our week on emotional abuse kicks in. It is not in the husband’s or the marriage’s best interest to submit to abuse, although there is a winsome way to first speak up that is more efficacious. I hope this week helps, for it is true that if you have to resort to the last step of backing up (speak up, stand up, back up) it may lead to him divorcing you, which may be God’s merciful provision.
I do think, however, there are times when God leads a believer, as He did Christ, to submit to abuse from civil authorities, for a grander purpose. Here is one example:
Last Christmas we received permission to give gifts of shampoo and deodorant to all the women in a Milwaukee prison — and it was plenty of work to make the hundreds of gifts prison acceptable. When we arrived permission was revoked with the genuine threat that if we tried to do it we would never be allowed back. It was a complete sinful powerful struggle to which we submitted, committing our case to God. We are still in the prison and women are still coming to Christ. We submitted to that abuse for the grander purpose of staying in the prison for the women. But we absolutely knew God will deal with those authorities and that we could not abandon those women behind bars. Does that make sense? I care about you Kerryn and those in your situation, and want to continue this dialogue.
Kerryn,
I agree with Jackie and thought the same thing. ” Fearless is actually one of the words that I would use to describe my impression of you as I’ve gotten to know a bit of your heart through this study blog. Your street chaplaincy alone would say something about that.”
Thank you all for the encouragement. I think I will do better to come back to this in a few weeks with fresh eyes and look again!
1. Dee – that was probably the best introduction to the topic of divorce that I have ever read! I love that you take about the “oneness” of marriage immediately following your perfect picture in the example of Aron Ralston having the courage to choose between his arm and his life. Also, I liked that you brought up two often misunderstood passages of scripture and gave a brief context of each that is so helpful. Nanci’s quote, which I noted and appreciated at the time she shared it, is SO good! My divorce as a very young woman didn’t look much like Nanci’s however……I had a VERY proud heart and was not a believer at the time. Your quote from Tim Keller was very apt for my situation: had we held on for another five years, I believe the story would have gone very differently. Your statement that we must honor marriage and fight for it is critical. But I’m SO thankful that we looked at abuse within marriage before we looked at divorce. If a husband is unrepentantly abusive toward his wife, fighting for the marriage may be making the marriage into an idol.
Thank you, Jackie. You hearten me.
Jackie, All of what you said is wise and this is important too: “If a husband is unrepentantly abusive toward his wife, fighting for the marriage may be making the marriage into an idol.”
Agree!
Kerryn= just as I posted I saw Dee’s reply to your question. I so agree with everything she wrote there……which is what I was thinking as I ended my initial comment. I think Diane has also pointed out that she knows several marraiges where an unbelieving husband has drawn a believing wife away even from fellowship with other believers……and Leslie Vernick rightly warns sternly that the POISON of abusive words in a marriage can infect a wife so that she too becomes poisonous to others……may it never be! But may we also never wander from God’s Word in this ………we need to dig deep with open hearts to hear from Him.
I can come up with “cutting” words at times to my husband 🙁
Kerryn – one quick comment, and I’m “done” monopolizing this morning!! I just had to pop back and read your take away from last week as I had missed it……one comment you made is that you are “certainly not fearless” – I understand the context better after reading more of your childhood experiences with abuse. I see why you would make that statement. NONETHELESS……fearless is actually one of the words that I would use to describe my impression of you as I’ve gotten to know a bit of your heart through this study blog. Your street chaplaincy alone would say something about that. But also, clearly you have lived and thrived and grown in your walk with your God – even in your widowhood, after losing a beloved husband……and while still raising children. My friend, you are are indeed a “woman of valor”!
I laughed out loud “then I am done monopolizing this morning.” I LOVED what you told Kerryn and so agree. A woman of valor.
All true!
I just finished John Piper’s message. My take away from it is that the most important relationship with anyone is with Christ. Being submissive to Him is ultimate; others will see our actions and learn from us. A kind, gentle spirit is how we are to live.
Wow. I agree with Jackie–Dee’s way of presenting such a difficult subject–modeling again that balance of mercy and truth. I love too the encouragement Jackie gave to Kerryn, and agree, she is a “fearless woman of valor”! I was most moved by dear Nanci’s painful testimony. To have only “known” Nanci here, since that terribly painful time in her life–to see the godly woman she is, making dresses for needy children around the world, caring so unconditionally for her own family, the way she AMAZINGLY remembers every prayer need we share here, and follows up!–she is such an example of God’s faithfulness–of what He does in a heart that turns to Him, is rescued by Him, and a life transformed by Him.
Amen, Elizabeth! To all of the above.
I think Elizabeth pointing out Dee’s modeling again of truth and mercy..SO important. This happened to my husband when his ex-wife left him. She was emotionally abusive to him and I believe he was to her in some instances as well-it was dynamite between them. She had an affair and then he forgave her and they went to counseling..yet a year later she left. He was heart broken. He comes from the camp that divorce isn’t an option. Yet He says to this day their divorce was by the mercy of God. She is really vindictive and cruel if others won’t let her control them and my husband is glad he isn’t still married to her for he would have stayed had she not left.
Rebecca– thank you for sharing Patrick’s story, I hurt for all he went through–but to see what God has given you both now, such beauty from ashes, a true testimony…so thankful you have each other now
1. What stands out to you from the above and why?
I agree with Jackie. This is the best approach I have heard on Divorce yet. I like the way Dee led us here the past couple of weeks into this week. I agree that Divorce is something we don’t take lightly and to try to work it out first is so important. I think Nancy’s story is a great example of that. I also LOVE how Dee likened it to Aron’s story of having to sever his arm. It takes a lot of courage to speak up stand up and back up.
I appreciate the balance presented, too, between fighting for the marriage and releasing the marriage. I also appreciate the acknowledgement that divorce is so very painful. Many circles I have been in tend to ignore it as an unsightly stain or downplay it as a mistake. Or worse exercise pride that their marriage is still intact. However, just because you dont get divorced doesnt mean your relationship is godly! I became intimately acquainted with divorce after walking with a dear friend through divorce. She sought God intently at every step and we saw miracles in the process that, though the outcome was different than we prayed, we knew God’s hand was in it. It forever changed my view of divorce (so often used selfishly). It was the first time I had really studied it other than to be told not to do it.
I still do not have internet. =/ Am hoping to get it this week (the company promised service twice this week but has not yet delivered). I do miss participating with y’all!
Every thought in your first paragraph gives me pause, Jill. You said it so much better than I could have, but I have seen each of those examples of how ‘not’ to deal with the topic of divorce. Thanks for making such a good clarification and pointing us to the good balance in this week’s approach by Dee.
I agree completely with Jackie’s comment. I have never read something so genuine and clarifying in describing this topic which has certainly affected everyone in some way. I immediately felt that some of the gripping questions I have had, have some good answers in scripture. I expect that the study will raise more questions and more clarifications.
Dee…you reflect God’s love and God’s wisdom so clearly, in your writing and in your gentle processing of the things with which we struggle. Your heart for us and the many women to whom you minister is a constant blessing. I am thanking God for you today and praying for you.
And Jackie, you also continually amaze me as you have such a heart of compassion to personally respond to people with such focus to meet someone where they are. I’m humbled by how the Lord shines through you…..and how He has redeemed so much in your life, that you minister so well to others in the midst of the big struggles you, yourself are going through.
What grace is evident on this blog! Everyone has a story and the Lord is living and reigning here.
Nanci’s comments are so good. They made me pause and think and be grateful for such role models as Nanci and her husband are. I am so glad for what I am learning from others here. Once again, redemption is so evident.
(Up early after the worst motel ‘non sleep’ night I’ve had in years. We shared a suite and took the sofa ‘sleeper’. Ha! It’s okay, we’re having a very nice time with 2 family members. So all good. So, I am actually on much earlier than I ever am able to be here. Smile. )
Thank you, Wanda — and thank you for your prayers! A sofa sleeper — oh! But glad to have you on early!
Good morning from Montana. It is a beautiful Indian Summer morning here.
Dee, I’m so grateful for the format you provide here for us. Over the summer I’ve grown to love this online community of women. You have encouraged and challenged me over these many weeks.
Nanci, thank you for your transparant, hopeful words about marriage.
1. What stood out to me from this first day?
The Lucille Ball quote. How does a person get out from under the heavy stamp of failure?
So glad you are having lovely weather, Nila…..as my ‘kids’ should have arrived in your fair state today. 🙂 Lovely all through Minnesota today too! Glorious colors of autumn bring praise to their Creator!
Great question, Nila.
It is so natural to beat ourselves up for failure. I’ve done it. I did it after Steve died, knowing I failed him in many ways. I had a moment when I watching Keller talk about how he too would beat himself up and say, “I’m an idiot, I deserve any suffering I get.” But then to realize how that beating ourselves up is to diminish what Christ did at the cross. It is finished. He took it. I honestly have come to see that beating ourselves up is an attempt to pay for our sin when it is finished. We failed. Christ took it. We are forgiven. So forgetting those things that are behind we press on. I hope these don’t sound like platitudes for they have been so healing to me, and I pray, dear Nila, to you.
Thank you Dee…. reading your response to my question with tears. And there are many stories evoking the tears, that I will not tell here now. But thank you for speaking the truth.
this is SO helpful Dee..it is finished. AMEN!
Dee, THANK YOU for this: “But then to realize how that beating ourselves up is to diminish what Christ did at the cross. It is finished. He took it. I honestly have come to see that beating ourselves up is an attempt to pay for our sin when it is finished. We failed. Christ took it. We are forgiven. So forgetting those things that are behind we press on.”
Thank you Dee for this explanation. A good reminder that Jesus died on the cross for us so would be free from our failures. Helps me to remember to leave them at the cross.
1. What stands out to you from the above and why?
i remember the climber; when he took his arm. oh my! I can’t imagine having any decision like that to make and then following through……although I have had pain that I wish would have left no matter what.
In a sense, I am “divorcing” myself from my daughter right now. SO PAINFUL. I have told her not to contact me if she needs money. She abuses me when I won’t give it to her; I think we created a monster 🙁 I hadn’t heard much from her in the past 2 weeks until last night. Then it started. “Mom, can I please have $20? My friend and I just want to get some dinner. I promise I will pay you back Monday when I get paid. Do you want me to STARVE?” I prayed and asked God to give me the words and not feel HORRIBLE GUILT. He did, and I didn’t give in. I told her “no, and if you ask again I will turn off your phone.” Then I turned off my ringer and put my phone upside down to protect myself. IT WAS HARD. But, I did it. I feel pretty bad, but I also know that God wants us to help her learn to live on her own, or at least as close as possible as she can get.
Oh Laura, I understand how hard this is for you.
I do understand… a few years ago, I gave my son an ultimatum that I was kicking him out of home. He was not studying, not working and not making any effort to change his circumstances. I offered to pay for counselling for him, any counsellor of his choice, but he couldn’t stay at home and do nothing. In hindsight, it was the best thing I could have done… it was a turning point for him. He is now studying for a degree and working at weekends and nights to support himself. He doesn’t live at home, but he’s here quite often for a home-cooked meal. But it was so hard to do… I thought of so many what ifs… what if he has to sleep on the streets… what if…
Oh, Laura. So difficult to implement tough love! Praying for you!
Laura–amazed at how you keep turning to Him, asking Him to give you the words, the strength…praying for dear Sarah’s heart
Praying for Sarah and for you and your husband, Laura. Oh so hard for your mother’s heart.
Oh Laura, I’m so sorry knowing how painful this is for you. I have been there when I had to “give up my son” to the Lord. Very hard to stand back and stand firm. For me God took care of my son and I believe He will do the same for your daughter.
Laura, I keep you and Sarah in my prayers. What you are having to do to help her grow up is so hard. And yes, children can be abusive to their parents…verbally, emotionally. That really hurts.
The image of amputation stands out to me. I have not been divorced, though my parents separation and divorce caused grief although I had already left home. One of my favourite books on grief and loss, a book I return to again and again, is A Grace Disguised by Jerry Sittser. In chapter called The Amputation of the Familiar Self, he relates any catastrophic loss to amputation. When John died, I certainly lost part of myself and related strongly to what he says.
Great quote, Kerryn. I can strongly identify with that sense of amputation.
That is really a good quote, Kerryn. I have felt it too….not a ‘complete amputation’ in any of these areas but certainly large pieces of my self have been taken away in many of the above examples.
Kerryn, thanks for that quote. My counselor has urged me to read that book and I have it on my kindle, but have not started it yet. That little taste is just what I needed to get serious about reading it.
I admire your courage.
What stood out?
The whole topic! I was planning to just explain that my husband and I are on vacation this week so I will not be participating. However, this topic is so relevant to me that I will try to read comments and participate when possible. We here are still going through the painful aftermath of the amputation that is our daughter’s divorce. She backed up two years ago from an emotionally abusive marriage, suffering mentally as she left. Her husband refused to let her take the children and not only refused counselling, but continued his abusive ways but depriving her of the boys until forced legally to give her decent access. She has been unable to find work (though we now hope that she has a job to begin soon. Yay! See Facebook. Will know more this week.) She has been living with us since June because we cannot afford to pay for an apartment for her; and thus we have an adult child living with us and have become surrogate parents to our grandsons much of the summer plus every second weekend this school year (or more frequently) when they are here. We live an hour away from town and that is very inconvenient for her for finding work, attending church, and spending time with the boys.
This divorce has been the most emotionally painful thing that I have ever gone through in my life. I come from a background where, I admit, I saw divorce as a sin except for adultery. Krista also felt that divorce was wrong. I really had no experience with emotional abuse. The year before she left, she tried temporarily separating from him and we argued against it. (She did not tell us what was really going on because she was ashamed to tell us.) They attended counselling temporarily but nothing changed. When she finally did leave and demanded that he attend counselling and change before she returned, he refused and immediately demanded divorce. He basically abandoned her emotionally and financially. I admit that, in spite of her ex’s abuse and abandonment, I felt/feel shame that this has had to happen. Plus watching my daughter and grandsons suffer is tremendously painful, and extremely disruptive to our lives.
This blog and these loving Christian women (and Leslie Vernick’s counsel online) have been a godsend to me through this difficult phase of our lives. I am currently working my way through the book “Shame Interrupted” by Welch. It is helpful in teaching that Christ’s work on the cross is complete. We are clothed in his garments. Our shame is gone; covered by Christ’s blood. It is hard to articulate yet but God is showing me that, as Dee has already so gently put it,
I could go on. I have so much more to learn.
Diane–thank you for sharing all of this–watching you journey through this storm has been painful to watch, and yet so encouraging to my faith–you still remind me of the lighthouse amidst the crashing waves, and how you and Aubrey have been that for Krista, and the boys. I LOVE this–it is GOLD: “I honestly have come to see that beating ourselves up is an attempt to pay for our sin when it is finished. We failed. Christ took it. We are forgiven. “
Thanks, elizabeth.
Once again, I have to say ‘Amen’ to everything Elizabeth said. Diane….I surely see you as an anchor in the lives of your children/grandchildren and sometimes, it can be easy to overlook how difficult this has been for you also. I know what it is like to ‘be strong’ for your hurting child. But, as moms…we would do anything to take away the pain if we could. And we hurt all the while. Thank you for sharing more of your story. I’m so glad you are finding help and encouragement. The ‘shame’ quote that Dee began and has been repeated a couple of times now is wonderful! Another one to print and post!
Thanks, Wanda.
Diane, you have been a woman who has shown great faith and courage. Long hard road!
Thank you for sharing Diane. It gives me an understanding I did not have before with what you shared with me the other day and the Lord used YOU to minister something to me in the place that I am at. I will pray for you and your daughters family.
Diane thank you so much for being open to help see the strength it takes for everyone. Krista is blessed to have you by her side and the boys can see the love that is given and will be able to make it thru these tough times.
Diane,
Your story is so helpful to anyone going through this and as you stated this blog is a balm both through Dee’s teaching and the women here. God is present and He is our comfort. I love your ending..”I have so much more to learn.” -You have a teachable heart Diane, so soft to Him. The amputation is so so so so painful..even when one is being abused. We need one another. Krista needs you and needs the body. I am so thankful you are there for her. I hate that all of you are suffering..yet glad to hear how He is making beauty from these ashes already. Take courage, this valley won’t last forever-well none of this pain along with the valleys you will encounter later-and we all will..His transformation in you all now will be beautiful..but what is to come..oh. We were made for that day.
Just wanted to say, I’m still following along some with the studies. (read everything posted on this one today so far) Having never married, I just don’t feel like I have very much of any real value to contribute to most of the recent topics. Of course, abuse can occur in many relationships (even with friendships) but there are so many women here with a breadth of experience (and out of that, a depth of wisdom and insight) that I do not have…so I’ll save my words for now. 🙂 My dearest friend in life did go through a divorce many years ago and while I can see some hard effects it had on her one daughter, I also see the wonderful marriage she now has and God’s grace and mercy stamped all over it. Glad we have a God who delights in redeeming, for our good, the territory the enemy tries to steal.
mary e.–I have missed you! So good to have you chime back in–and don’t stop. You have God-given wisdom and being single does not diminish that wisdom in any way–I glean so much from your heart and input. Update on how you are feeling?
Hey Elizabeth…I am doing REALLY well. (from what I can tell, based on how I feel.) I feel like I am in a full remission (or healed) but my oncologist will not order more scans until end of Oct/beginning of Nov. She says if you do the rescanning too soon (after starting treatment) it could actually look WORSE because apparently healing bones will suck of the contrast dye just as readily as cancer does, so healing bones can make it look like the cancer is even more extensive than it is. So…patiently waiting for the proper time to get the official news on how I am doing…BUT, right now the only thing about me that does not feel 100% normal is the side effects from shutting down the ovaries and taking tamoxifen (hot flashes, and they disrupt my sleep a bit, and some headaches, but I praise God that it is working!) The hardest thing is emotional…having such palpable uncertainty about my future and what to do about work and where to live. I sent a resume to a position at a VA medical center near me and it seems like it would be a great fit (24 hours a week, could still get benefits I think), so we’ll see. I really, really don’t think returning to the home visits (which are not smoke free environments, since it’s the patient’s home) would be best, and right now my doctor still has me on lifting restrictions (nothing more than 10 lbs because my CT from June showed pathologic fractures of my vertebrae) so at least until Nov, returning to my current job is not even an option, as the bag that I have lift in and out of my car and carry up and down stairs is 16 lbs. So…doing great physically and trying to REST in His capable hands with regard to all the uncertainties. (crazy how REST can be such an effort! I’m much better and planning and scheming and giving Him ideas for how things could workout!!! Just in case He needs my help ;))
Sorry this got so out of control long! Thanks for asking, Elizabeth.
oh Mary, I read this with “happy tears”! SO SO thankful you are feeling so good, really I have goosebumps! Oh, and I will pray about this possible job!! Wow–SO glad you chimed back in and let us know how you are–please stay, I want to hear how if you get the job! Oh and how I do relate to this ” I’m much better and planning and scheming and giving Him ideas for how things could workout!!! ” Ditto 🙂 And the effort it does take to REST in Him, praying dear sister…
Mary…..I’m so glad to see your face here today! We have all missed you and many are praying for you regularly. I’m praying for a breakthrough of what job will work best for you and for your feeling better to continue. Also…..the hurried menopause symptoms I know are hard. Prayers for mercy there….and for good rest. AND for peace of mind. I know that lack of good sleep makes all issues harder and you have so much on your plate. As others have said, you are a vital part of this fellowship…..so do jump in when you can!
Mary, SO glad you are feeling well. Continuing to pray for you. Most universities with nursing programs would be glad to have you 🙂
So happy to hear that you feel better, mary e. Hope you continue to improve and that you get another job that is a great fit. Please don’t hesitate to chime in here at any time. We love your contributions.
Mary E — this sounds like pretty good news but oh, yes, the uncertainty. So good to have you here again.
So happy to “see” you here and hear your news! Praise The Lord! God will provide the right job for you. I have prayed for you during this time. I know a little bit about tamoxifen; the sleeping/hot flashes, and for me (I think) random bouts of depression (?). I have had many symptoms….they usually last a couple of weeks and then are gone. Are you still having to do the bone infusions? My mom continued those for several years. Will be praying for your job situation.
Mary E…so happy to hear that you are feeling well…:) Hoping (and praying) that the job landscape becomes more clear for you. I do agree with you…not be good to be in smoke filled environments or to be physically exerting yourself beyond what is deemed acceptable at this time. Continue to take care, dear sister…you are loved, as the many response comments from your blog sisters attest to…
Mary – really thankful to see your smiling face again! Have been concerned …….I hope you are feeling well. You certainly have so much to offer….like Elizabeth, I’m hoping you chime back in a whole LOT! Love to you sister.
Mary, thank you for updating us on how you’re doing…it helps me to know how better to pray for you. The work situation is hard; I’m a nurse too and so know the job often entails lifting and physical stress and strain on the body! I’ll be praying for you to find some work, perhaps at the VA, that won’t be too much physical strain and allow you to get medical benefits, too. You inspire us with your courage, Mary.
Mary, thanks for sharing with us how you’re doing…I continue to pray for you and will do so for this job at the VA and for the side effects of the medication.
Mary e….I’m also thankful to hear from you and will continue to pray for you….please keep us posted!
Wanda–I didn’t get a chance to respond to your beautiful prayer from the end of last week, but it so impacted me. I want to quote the whole thing but these parts really struck me: “…To live in harmony, love as brothers, be compassionate, be humble. To bless those who insult me. To only say what is true and with a pure motive. To actively pursue peace…Lord, I desire that others see my behavior as reflecting your goodness and mercy. But let me desire this only for your glory.”
Thank you, Elizabeth. Always a challenge to continue to take to heart what the Lord is showing.
What stands out to you and why?
As a nurse who cared for patients with amputations I knew what a lot of pain was involved. When the limb was no longer there, pain was still felt because of the nerve fibers which continued to give the message of pain.
It never occurred to me to think of divorce in this strong analogy. yet I know that the phrase “two shall become one” is biblical, Genesis 2:24.
As a young woman I thought of divorce as a solution to an unhappy marriage. i am thankful that God brought me back into relationship with my husband, and yes, now it is a satisfying relationship.
However, my daughter had to pursue divorce due to her hard-hearted husband. Now the pain persists every time her two young children have visitation with their father. This is a never ending pain, like an amputation. Even though the wound heals, the pain is still felt. I, too, feel the pain as the children’s well-being also affects me. So it has a far reaching consequence.
Shirley, I hadn’t thought of the ‘phantom’ pains following an amputation that are a permanent reminder of the loss. But that is so true. My brother in law who suffered paraplegia after a helicopter crash has had phantom pains for over half of his life now. The loss of the use of his legs is continually ‘felt’. Even with my mastectomy, I felt pain at the wound site for over 2 years following surgery. It reminds us of what was once a part of us and is no longer. How true that is when any part of us is severed; physically, emotionally and spiritually. I am glad to hear of your restored marriage. Thinking about your daughter and grandchildren. How very hard it is to experience that as a mom. May God’s healing be complete for each of you. Praying for your family, dear Shirley.
I honestly was a bit frightened when I saw the heading of this weeks study. It reminded me of how I felt at a time last year when a friend who had been in a very long term abusive marriage who exhibited such strength in the midst of it made the announcement she made the decision to seek happiness. She was divorcing her husband and in the same room was another friend who had recently separated and was experiencing greater peace. In that situation I felt such a strong urge to join them to be released from the pain I was experiencing. I actually had to leave the group that night as I felt for that moment I was in I was best not to be there as the temptation was so strong. Was all of this only an illusion???? I catch myself fantasizing about being free from it at times and it scares me. My friend stated the Lord had instructed her to leave many years earlier and she did not. I struggled with that comment. I know the Lord has shown me so many area that need changing in me but sometimes wonder is this the only place I need to be to change????? My husband says he wants to be done so often yet never has left. I think he wants me to be the one to go and though I am tempted I have not either. He will not go to counseling, I have been myself. I had one counselor say she did not know what my goals were. It was not divorce. If I think about it( and I try not to) about my life continuing in the state that it is regarding my marriage relationship it makes me very sad. I think of the comment from Tim Keller that Dee shared about marriages who hang on for 5 years that things had improved. Though at times I go thru relatively peaceful though weak relationship times they are usually short lived. In the midst of this I have times of personal joy in my relationship with the Lord and I certainly do not sit and feel sorry for myself. I have many testimonies over the years that I have seen such evidences of Gods grace and His working thru my husband. The issues I have faced have drawn me so close to the Lord and for that I am so grateful. I am praying for the Lords wisdom. I know I do not walk this road alone. I realize I am one who over the years has beaten myself up and the comment about doing that is telling Christ what he did for me was not enough is a comment I have heard before and one I needed to hear again. The story of the man making the choice to amputate his arm in order to live is one to ponder deep. Thank you to all who have been sharing on this blog. It is a ministry to me to be able to see women ministering to each other in such a caring community. Look forward to where the Lord will lead us this week.
Oh Liz — don’t know how long you have hung on in such sadness. Would you consider working with Leslie? If you would separate with the stipulation that you would not return until your husband had gone through counseling and you could change, it might save the marriage — or it might end it. Could you live with that? We will pray for you here!
Thank you Dee. We just had our 29th anniversary. I gave my heart to the Lord 19 years ago. Our marriage had issues prior but seemed to increase after that. I have times of great discouragement but I still have hope. I am willing to work with Leslie. I am studying what we have here this week I just do not always chime in:) Praying for Wisdom.
Liz, I’m so glad you are here and you will find support and encouragement and prayers for you…I’m sorry you’re in a tough marriage. I am not sure from your post if it is an emotionally abusive marriage or if the two of you struggle with being compatible? I know that Leslie Vernick makes the distinction between abusive and difficult marriages. Anyway, my heart goes out to you…I hope and pray God will give you direction.
Susan Thank you I appreciate your reaching out and your prayers. I would say honestly it is both emotionally abusive and struggling to be compatible. I am thankful to be a part of this community. I really blessed that I have found it. Gods Amazing Grace!
Thank you for sharing your heart here, Liz. I’m praying for you this week, that you will see God’s hand in leading you to what is the next step for you. It is evident that you are seeking His will. May that be clear to you. And may you feel His sweet peace amidst the tumult, dear Liz.
Wanda thank you for your prayers. Gods ways not my own. I know He is at work.
Liz – I thought about what you have said a lot…..I wanted to respond to you right away, but just wasn’t sure if I should jump in. Meanwhile, Dee answered you so wisely…..and I would add, at the very least you may want to try working through Leslie’s book “The Emotionally Destructive Marraige”…..though maybe you also have done so. I have lived a lot of your story – I know that there are no easy answers…..oh how my heart sank when I read that your husband has told you many times that he just wants to be done…..and yet he doesn’t leave. Oh boy, have I ever been there! I know the craving for freedom…..even have experienced near exhileration when I thought that he truly was leaving and that the Lord was going to “release me”……and then……nothing happened……disappointment, weariness, hopelessness…….our marraige is in a very different place over just the past couple of months – much more hopeful. Dee really put it so well when she said “could you live with that?”…….I found the Lord needed for me to be in that place of being willing to stay well in the marraige – OR being willing to leave well if change did not happen. I guess I really do desire to be in that place where I can say “To me, to live is Christ”. Not “to me, to live is to have a happy marraige”. The Lord bless you Liz……as you seek His face.
Jackie. Thanks for sharing with me. The words staying well or willing to leave well if change did not happen stick out. What does staying well look like? I am curious to ask what do you think brought the change that you are experiencing? can you pin point anything? I have had some incredible testimonies over the years that just keep my hope alive. That has always been amazing to me!!!!! Leslies book does sound interesting. I have been able to minister to so many others as well. I feel the keys I have stood on have been praying for my husband and Praising the Lord all the way thru. Even thanking Him for my husband just where he is at. That has brought me through. I also remind myself that those times where I think I am desperate for freedom from the pain may not be so much a reality on the other side. Its not always pain from verbal abuse sometimes it is just getting things the way I want them to be and not the way my husband wants them to be. The power struggle. The thought that my way of doing things is better than his ways. Pride Pride, Pride. I KNOW that has to go! Lord please help me. I do however always feel like I am the only one trying. Of coarse it is always my fault so why not. I know that is a lie BUT……
Liz – Well, first off, the Lord is in this……even the hard, hard parts of the journey. It is so clear to me that you are in a place of desiring more of HIM – which is key. “Stay well, leave well” comes directly from Leslie Vernick and her book “The Emotionally Destructive Marriage”. There is so much more I could say….but if you would like to email me at jackiejrandallatgmaildotcom…….I can respond more fully. Please do email me – we have a lot in common…..my husband Casey and I will be married 29 years in November! 🙂
Also Liz…..you can go to Leslie’s website at leslievernickdotcom……TONS of free help there! Right now there’s a little 4 minute video on her home page that’s a good intro too…..many on this study blog (Diane and Elizabeth come to mind) have found much help and information there.
Liz, I so appreciate your willingness to share and your tender heart is so precious. I agree with Dee in her counsel and will pray for you in that too.
Thank you Rebecca. I am praying for clear direction and always the truth. That I will be alert to what the Lord is speaking to me and to have discernment for what He is not. Most importantly that I obey. Trusting in the Lord with all my heart leaning not on my own understanding acknowledging Him in everything knowing He will make my path straight.
As always Dee you have explained and gave examples in picture form that can really open up the eyes. I’ve been away from the blog for a while but have continued to pray for the ladies and their families and you Dee as you travel and teach others. I see too many just give up on each other that it saddens me. I prayed hard to keep my marriage together and stood on scripture and sought counseling to get the help I needed to understand the verses I was standing on. To see Dee use the word amputation was kind of like WOW I never thought of it that way. But I have to say as hard as I worked to try and keep it together I found you can’t make someone love you. Divorce is not easy but I do agree it is sometimes the answer. Looking forward to getting back in the group with these fine ladies.
Welcome back, Julie! Thank you for sharing some of your story too. Looking forward to hearing your insights as we go through this week.
Thanks Wanda I certainly need to get back on track.
2A. How are the men giving an appearance of godliness?
The men are fulfilling the outward requirements of religious observance – the rituals of prayer and sacrifice.
2B. Why isn’t the Lord answering their prayers?
God has judged the situation and seen that their life does not match their religiosity. God wants to bring them to their senses, so they will change their behaviour.
2C. The Hebrew of verse 16 is difficult, but I do think Eugene Peterson caught it above. What is God saying?
I think it is saying that God hates and condemns the violence and treachery that leads to and causes divorce.
D. If you are a victim of divorce or have a friend who is, how might this passage bring comfort?
God shares in the pain of divorce – that amputation hurt him too. It is not being a party to divorce that is being condemned, but the abusive behaviour that precipitated divorce.
2. Read Malachi 2:13-16
A. How are the men giving an appearance of godliness?
They give tears and offerings to God; they cry because they think God is unhappy with them and won’t receive their offerings.
B. Why isn’t the Lord answering their prayers?
God is upset they have been unfaithful to their wives.
C. The Hebrew of verse 16 is difficult, but I do think Eugene Peterson caught it above. What is God saying?
This is the kind of verse in the bible that has double meaning (I think). I read it literally….that the man who divorces his wife is breaking the covenant with God, and should be protecting his wife, not divorcing her. He should be taking care of her.
D. If you are a victim of divorce or have a friend who is, how might this passage bring comfort?
Well, you have God on your side! That is a blessing.
2. A. How are the men giving an appearance of godliness?
The men coming bearing gifts to the altar of God.
B. Why isn’t the Lord answering their prayers?
The men are sinful…they are being unfaithful to their spouses.
C. The Hebrew of verse 16 is difficult, but I do think Eugene Peterson caught it above. What is God saying?
God is saying that He prefers healthy, loving, respectful marriages…He sees the pain caused when this is not the case; when a spouse disengages, is hurtful, etc. The pain is not contained in the marital relationship, but seeps beyond to children, parents, siblings, in-laws, friends. I don’t believe that the Lord is directing spouses to stay in emotionally destructive, violent relationships, but by the same token, He doesn’t want them to just “throw in the towel” at any sign of disagreement or issue. I believe the Lord’s plan for marriage is that the man and woman become one with a bond that is strong, supportive, loving, kind, respectful, and engaged. This type of relationship will weather “the storms” that are sure to come; this type of a relationship will not only benefit the couple but their children and the world around them.
D. If you are a victim of divorce or have a friend who is, how might this passage bring comfort?
This passage brings comfort in knowing that the Lord hates the pain inflicted by divorce…He hates the actions that prompt divorce…He hates the hurts caused that leave a spouse no other choice but to divorce. The Lord only wants what is best for us…He understands that being in a loving, kind, respectful, supportive marriage is best; being in an emotionally destructive, violent relationship is not. He hates what hurts His children…divorce hurts everyone involved in one way or another.
2. Read Malachi 2:13-16
A. How are the men giving an appearance of godliness?
By weeping and groaning over the altar with tears because God won’t accept their offering and won’t answer their prayers.
B. Why isn’t the Lord answering their prayers?
The men were divorcing their wives and not loving them..it wasn’t a ‘just’ reason to divorce. Perhaps they were just throwing them off for others because they were tired of them. This broke God’s heart and made Him angry at the injustice being done to the women.
C. The Hebrew of verse 16 is difficult, but I do think Eugene Peterson caught it above. What is God saying?
God joined them as one “with a portion of the spirit in their union” so the divorce or ripping apart of one another includes a ripping apart of their spiritual union. It is an emotional, spiritual and physical ripping apart. It is PAINFUL..and it hurts God even more.
D. If you are a victim of divorce or have a friend who is, how might this passage bring comfort?
It is hard to know the timing of what to say and when not to say anything. So I would pray..and listen to her first and trust Him for timing and words. I would tell my friend that He is angry at the injustice done to her. He hates what her husband has done to her and will be her comfort. I would refer to Psalm 18 as well. I would also tell her that God has experienced being torn apart of that one-ness on the Cross so He isn’t distant-He knows and is passionate for her.
This is strange…I just looked at my posts and Rebecca’s name is under my pic?! I don’t remember typing Rebecca in the name box…
that is so strange, Susan. Kinda like when a face recognition software sees and tags someone mistakenly. Hope the posts come back though.
I just noticed that also!!! WEIRD. I thought…are they twins? =)
Susan, I often have started to type in someone else’s name when I am thinking about what they wrote or responding to them. AND since I was responding to you (EVEN ON THIS!!), I started to type your name in the little box instead of the big box :DI’m kinda surprised that I don’t see this very often. Now, if only I could use my name and someone else’s pic (I guess I can, but I’d have to swipe it from elsewhere!)
Mary, Susan and Renee….this has turned into a fun conversation…ha! I also had to smile when I saw Susan’s picture and Rebecca’s name and thought….Wow! We could make this really interesting! Maybe on April Fool’s Day?? I have done exactly as Renee described…..MANY times, I catch myself typing the name of the person I am replying to.
I saw that and wondered what the heck happened???
Now those posts disappeared…
Now they are back 😉 Dee probably had to approve when another name is attached to your email address. That’s what happened with my “fake name,” too!
You know, I had replied to one of Rebecca’s posts from last week before I came to this week’s study; maybe that’s how her name was in my name box!
1. What stands out to you from the above and why?
I appreciate the brevity in the way this topic of divorce is being presented. The explanation again that “God hates divorce”, as said in Malachi, should not be used to shame or shun the divorced. What they have gone through is hard enough…an amputation, so to speak, as described in the example above. Love Nanci’s beautiful testimony of how God restored her after her divorce; sadly, for many women, there is no restoration in that way. I know a few divorced women who continue to suffer from the actions of the ex-husband.
1 A. How are the men giving an appearance of godliness?
Their demonstrations of sorrow. But the sorrow is because God is not answering their prayers, not sorrow over the root of their sin/unfaithfulness to the wife of their youth. Their sorrow seems to be over how they are being treated, rather than sorrow in repentance over how they were treating their wives.
B. Why isn’t the Lord answering their prayers?
Because of their faithlessness in relationship to their wives. This faithlessness subverts the oneness God intended in this covenant relationship. Serious business with our God. (Did anyone else out there ever do the Covenant bible study by Kay Arthur? It is such a beautiful, convicting, life-giving study.)
C. The Hebrew of verse 16 is difficult, but I do think Eugene Peterson caught it above. What is God saying?
One commentary I read this morning said that the meaning of “faithless” (bagad) is related to the use of “garment” (beged). So that the meaning of the verb has the sense of “garmenting” others or “covering up” others. To “cover up” another is to treat them in ways that show inequity. To dishonor someone through fraud, cheating, lying. The failure to act honestly with another person. And how do you have a genuine relationship with someone you cannot trust? Or, how do you rebuild trust that has been broken again and again?
Nila, that is so hard to regain the person’s trust. I know I was asked when I was getting divorced but said I wanted to try and keep my marriage and family together I was asked to search my heart and ask myself will I trust that person if we do stay together. So so hard to trust again.
2. Read Malachi 2:13-16
A. How are the men giving an appearance of godliness? They are continuing to bring sacrifices with weeping and wailing…an appearance of a contrite heart.
B. Why isn’t the Lord answering their prayers? The sacrifices are not pleasing to the Lord because their devotion to Him has been severed. They have been treacherous in that they have divorced their Jewish wives to marry foreign women with foreign gods. There is treachery because they did not remain faithful to the covenant made with God as a witness.
C. The Hebrew of verse 16 is difficult, but I do think Eugene Peterson caught it above. What is God saying? When God says that He hates divorce ‘for it covers one’s garment with violence’ (KJV) it does appear to be have the meaning of a violent tearing apart and a pervasive impact on the whole body. To be covered in it as with a garment. In the NIV, it reads, “….I hate divorce, and I hate a man’s covering himself with violence, as well as with his garment” The NASB says, “…him who covers himself with wrong.” When I first read the NIV, my first impulse was that God hates the divorce as he also hates the violence or the wrong that is the cause of the divorce. The abuse, the unfaithfulness, the treachery. I didn’t initially see that the violence is the consequence of the divorce…the violent tearing away, the amputation. Are both meanings there?
D. If you are a victim of divorce or have a friend who is, how might this passage bring comfort? It shows me that God comes alongside and feels the pain that the divorced person is feeling. He feels the sorrow over the breaking of the marriage as He sorrowed over the breaking of the covenant with His people. But he does not turn away. He longs to have communion with them. He longs to love, heal and restore.
2. Read Malachi 2:13-16
A. How are the men giving an appearance of godliness? they were putting on quite a show at the altar: they were crying because the Lord didn’t accept their offerings with favor.
B. Why isn’t the Lord answering their prayers? they were unfaithful to their wives and divorced them. The marriages were covenants witnessed by God.
C. The Hebrew of verse 16 is difficult, but I do think Eugene Peterson caught it above. What is God saying? He hates the damage done in divorce because it rips apart one flesh — so protect marriage.
D. If you are a victim of divorce or have a friend who is, how might this passage bring comfort? God sees and knows the pain — and has experienced it. Jesus experienced the ultimate pain of divorce being separated from His Father on the cross.
Renee……good answer on D. So true.
A. What question in Matthew 19:3 is asked of Jesus? “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?”
B. How does Jesus go back to God’s plan for marriage in Matthew 19:4-6? He went back to creation of man and woman, that when they are married they become one flesh.
What is He communicating about marriage and divorce? God put man and woman together in marriage as one flesh, and people shouldn’t tear apart the “one flesh.”
C. What is the next question and answer from Jesus in Matthew 19: 7-9? Q: “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” A: God allowed divorce because of people’s hardness of heart, but it wasn’t his plan for marriage. Then Jesus said that whoever divorces and remarries, except for divorces in case of adultery, commits adultery.
D. Challenge question: why does adultery break the marriage covenant? Sexual intimacy with someone outside the marriage messes up the “one flesh.” (i.e., a third party introduced into the two that were one flesh).
SO ANOTHER QUESTION: Is Jesus saying the following breaks the marriage covenant? “But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
Renee – when you added “so another question”……that’s a good question! Jesus said so many startling things – and I think we so very often try to “soften” his words and make them more palatable somehow. Still, we know for certain that Jesus was the ONLY man who ever walked through life 100% pure in heart. If we applied these words of his to every marriage in the history of the world…..how many would stand? Is there a difference between committing adultery in the heart and committing adultery in the body? In that same passage Jesus talks about murder – but Jesus says that judgement will come as well to those who are angry and destroy through their anger…….Jesus had spoken just prior to that about how he had come to fulfill the law, not abolish the law. Ultimately, it all comes back to our need for Jesus, doesn’t it? We all fall and sin – whether in our hearts or in our deeds……indeed, we sin in both ways! But as to your core question of whether adultery in the heart destroys the marriage covenant – I’m eager to hear what others may know about this! I do not know.
Was reading Craig Keener on this (And Marries Another). He’s a little quirky on video but makes good sense. He said Jesus used hyperbole to make a point at times. So, Renee — we must go back to that passage and find the point. It was the Sermon on the Mount which shows us that it is impossible to live up to the standard of God, so we need grace. I don’t think you could make this a case for divorce.
Now I see Jackie already said this — you didn’t need me — and I love that!
Thanks, Dee. It seemed weird that it could make a case for divorce…but I didn’t know what to do with the verse when it popped into my head. “Hyperbole” — good to remember:)
Thinking back to 2D about comfort for victims of divorce/adultery: I’m remembering Hosea and how that is a picture of Christ and his adulterous bride. Jesus has experienced every angle of this pain AND He is a faithful spouse. This is definitely a time to lean into Him, to know his faithfulness.
Renee I really liked that thought about the Lord experiencing every angle and remaining faithful. I believe its so vitally important to remember what Christ did for me when I am struggling with others. And as you stated to lean into Him To know His faithfulness. It is a Grace walk for sure.
2. Read Malachi 2:13-16
A. How are the men giving an appearance of godliness? – They cry their tears at the alter making it appear that they are sad and upset and that they don’t know what they have done to make God so upset.
B. Why isn’t the Lord answering their prayers? – They have lied from the heart. Their outward motion of crying at the alter is just a front of what is going on in their hearts. Their hearts are full of adulterous motives and unfaithfulness and deceit toward God.
C. The Hebrew of verse 16 is difficult, but I do think Eugene Peterson caught it above. What is God saying? – I so love this take on verse 16. God is not hiding the fact that he is not only upset but mad and very angry that we think it’s ok to break apart the covenant of two people that He put together. Like we know what is better for us.
D. If you are a victim of divorce or have a friend who is, how might this passage bring comfort? – My first thought to this passage was good God will give them what they deserve for being unfaithful but I know this is harsh and I have no place to be saying that or being judge and jury. I know is some cases this may be true depending on the circumstance but for me and the divorce I went thru my ex was unfaithful but I asked him to forgive me for not being the wife I should have been. I became a Christian after we got married but he did not. Our communication was nil to non existent at times so I asked for forgiveness from him and from God. I did not want to leave the marriage thinking I was not at fault and I wanted God’s blessings in the life that was to come for me.
Julie – I sure appreciated your response to D. above. “I did not want to leave the marriage thinking I was not at fault and I wanted God’s blessing in the life that was to come for me.” I would think that having an unfaithful spouse would be so shattering and it would be so tempting to “throw the book” at the offending party and lay all of the blame at their feet. Asking their forgiveness at such a time seems to me to be possible only through the power of the Holy Spirit. I’m thankful you were able to be so responsive to the Spirit. That is a testimony we should all take note of, for it lifts up the name of the Lord.
Jackie, it really helped me to face my 2 boys that I know I did everything to keep our family together. I was able to look at them and tell them that truthfully. It was not easy but it was necessary for me.
Amen, Jackie, to your words to Julie.
In case anyone else has trouble–It was requiring me to login to my acct to read the entire article at Christianity Today (I have one with work, but it still didn’t let me read the whole thing-?)–here is a link to a pdf if you have trouble: http://www.agathosministries.org/Sermons111107b.pdf
Thanks for the pdf file on the article,elizabeth. I don’t have a login for Christianity Today so I need a different link.
Oh thank you — I’ll put that in the text.
Yes thank you for the PDF link Elizabeth.
A. What question in Matthew 19:3 is asked of Jesus?
“Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”” (Matthew 19:3 NIV)
B. How does Jesus go back to God’s plan for marriage in Matthew 19:4-6? What is He communicating about marriage and divorce?
He goes back to Adam and Eve to say God made man and woman to be as one flesh. I think he is implying that they we’re made for each other and should remain together.
C. What is the next question and answer from Jesus in Matthew 19: 7-9?
“Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?” (Matthew 19:7 NIV)
Jesus says that Moses allowed divorce because the men’s hearts were “hard.”
3. A. What question in Matthew 19:3 is asked of Jesus?
Is it okay for a man to divorce his wife for any reason.
B. How does Jesus go back to God’s plan for marriage in Matthew 19:4-6? What is He communicating about marriage and divorce?
Jesus goes back to creation…He shared how God had created man and woman complimentary for each other and to become “one” in a covenant relationship…Jesus stated that the two/the union should not be separated.
Related to marriage and divorce… The hope (and the Lord’s desire) is that all marital unions will be rich unions that are loving, supportive, respectful, etc.. When marriages hit troubled times (as most if not all will at some point), the spouses should put effort/work into restoring the relationship. Marriages should not be ended for trivial, non-sensical reasons, but truly fought for with effort and persistence and truly lost if divorce is the end result.
C. What is the next question and answer from Jesus in Matthew 19: 7-9?
The pharisees asked why Moses had allowed for a man to divorce his wife. Jesus responded that divorce was not part of God’s original plan…because of the hard-heartedness of man, divorce was provided as a means for ending the marital relationship.
D. Challenge question: why does adultery break the marriage covenant?
Adultery breaks the “oneness” of the marriage covenant…no longer is it the two that formed one, but another has been allowed through adultery to enter and the “oneness” is lost.
E. What is the response of the disciples to this? Why, do you think?
The disciples decided that in light of what Jesus had shared regarding marriage/divorce, it would be better to not marry. I’m thinking that the disciples thought that if they did not marry, then there was no chance of them falling into sin related to marriage/divorce.
F. What does Jesus say in Matthew 19:10-12? What does this mean and how might this be applied?
Jesus says that “statement is true for some, but not for everyone—only for those who have been given this gift.” I’m not sure exactly what “this gift” refers to…maybe special abilities in preaching, teaching, etc. that would be easier without the responsibilities of spouse and children? Jesus explained that some are destined for marriage, while others are not. It depends on the plan for their life. For some the effect of marital responsibilities (i.e., spouse, children, family) may hinder their abilities (e.g., time, energy) in the responsibilities the Lord destines them for, therefore it is beneficial for them to remain unmarried. While others will benefit themselves and our world by being married, raising children, establishing family.
Julie and Jackie,
Appreciated your comments so much. It is no coincidence that all of the messages at church the past several weeks have been on Hosea. This past Sunday, the pastor got to Hosea 10:12, which he said is the “crux” of the whole book. In recent years it has struck me that “crux” literally means “cross”. And although we understand “crux” to mean an essential point requiring resolution or resolving an outcome, it really does always come back to the cross of Jesus….. how to die to my self….. how to live unto Him.
Hosea 10:12 says, Sow with a view to righteousness, reap in accordance with kindness, break up your fallow ground. For it is time to seek the Lord, until He comes to rain righteousness on you.
The pastor gently and passionately said that essentially the verse is saying, “its not too late.” And so, applying that to a difficult or abusive marriage, “its not to late to stay well or to leave well in this marriage.” The enemy of our soul would say otherwise, a husband could say otherwise. We can ask our Lord to plow up any hard soil in our own hearts because our hearts get crusty.
Oh my Nila – every word you wrote is so timely! I’ll never use the word “crux” lightly again. Great reminder from Hosea….and your 2nd paragraph struck me kind of like “that should be in a book somewhere”!!!
Nila, Thanks for sharing this. I love the translation that “it’s not too late.” Good truth to speak to my soul in many areas.
3 C. What is the next question and answer from Jesus in Matthew 19: 7-9?
Question: “Why then did Moses command to give her a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
Jesus’ answer: “Because of your hardness of hearts Moses permitted you to divorce…..”
And as I said in my previous post this morning, Hosea 10:12 encourages us to invite the Lord to plow up any hardness in our own hearts.
Thank you Lord.
I may have realized why this discussion is so difficult for me. I’ve felt so confused with what seem to be mixed messages. It seems smart to get out of an abusive situation. Then last night, I watched a video clip from Piper where he is describing how women should submit to some kinds of abuse and then call the church (kinda made me sick to my stomach). And I remember the CT article (it does raise more questions for me than it answers, but will reread — I think the book would help). Plus, I’ve read/listened to other things by Instone-Brewer; I really like the guy — he’s very gracious. And I know that liking/disliking makes a difference in how objective I am (he makes a really strong case for annihilation rather than eternal punishment, much better case on this than CT article for me … and an ok case that other people were on earth prior to Adam and Eve). Anyhow, I don’t like feeling so confused.
But I don’t even think that my confusion about who/what to believe from the different messages is my main challenge (Sorting out a bunch of evidence is part of my day to day life. I’m used to some confusion 🙂 ). What is getting me at a deeper level is the idea of multiple reasons for breaking the covenant. (Just deleted some stuff — need to reread Instone-Brewer article again. I’m kinda scared to — although I did listen to him talking about this). It seems that multiple reasons for breaking the marriage covenant turns it into more of a contract than a covenant. What does this say about God’s covenant with his people?? With me?
I’m pretty sure Instone-Brewer isn’t a Calvinist (I ran into something where he pulled Calvinism & Arminianism together). I’m fine with the idea that it’s possible for people to fall away, but I’m not okay that my sin automatically breaks His covenant with me. It’s not just my heart that is adulterous. This is freaking me out at a pretty deep level because if marriage represents Christ and the Church and divorce is allowed in the situations listed in CT article (ugh — I probably should read the book to see if I-B clarifies), I’m sunk. I don’t want a contract with God because I can’t keep it. (And this is how my brain is functioning right now). Maybe the problem is that I am taking the analogy in the wrong direction??? Possible better logic: God’s PLAN for marriage (no divorce) represents his covenant with us. He allowed divorce allowed because of peoples’ hardness of heart; we live in a fallen world. God isn’t fallen, therefore he doesn’t divorce us, his bride. (Did he divorce Israel? or separate?) Trying to speak truth to my soul, but getting mixed up on what is true.
Renee – I have to go with Liz on this one. I haven’t read the CT article yet and am not familiar with Instone-Brewer, but I do know that I sometimes have to just “put aside” other reading materials and try to get back to focusing on the Word. What this IS making me see is that I need more study of biblical covenant. I think Nila mentioned that she had done a study on the Covenants through Precepts ministry maybe? I always love to look back at the covenant that God made with Abram in Genesis 15……evidently both parties would customary walk between the pieces of the sacrified animals to ratify the covenant…..but in this case, only God passed between the pieces. God alone promised to uphold that covenant. That’s probably going way afield, but it is an example of covenant – which blessedly, depended on God, not Abraham!
Renee……In the vernacular we grew up with, ‘Uff da’…..(you fellow Scandinavian will understand that) is how I feel after reading through and seeing the way these confusing mixed messages are frustrating to you. Differing viewpoints + several different areas = much confusion. You lost me on some of them as I’ve just not ever dug into those. I can see that I need to read the CT article before attempting to respond but hang in there. As always, you’ve raised good questions about the marriage/divorce/covenant relationships and now I am also looking forward to responses from others. We just need to catch up with you!
Renee praying for clarity and truth. One thing I have found over the years is when I go to too many other sources aside from THE SOURCE I can get confused. It muddies the waters. Believing the Lord will show us truth and we will have the wisdom and the discernment to know what it is.
Liz & Jackie, YES! Thanks for the reminder to look to THE SOURCE, to The Word. Google is not always my friend… (nor is reading additional books and trying to “figure everything out.”). I am easily distracted. Will continue to seek Him regarding how this relates to Christ and the Church.
3. In Mark 10 and Matthew 19, Jesus addresses divorce and adultery. Many Jewish men were divorcing their wives for “any cause,” even burning the toast.
A. What question in Matthew 19:3 is asked of Jesus? – they asked Jesus if it was ok to divorce your wife just because, for no good reason.
B. How does Jesus go back to God’s plan for marriage in Matthew 19:4-6? What is He communicating about marriage and divorce? – He reminds them that the man and woman were separate until he made them one flesh united in marriage and relying on each other no longer a part of their parents.
C. What is the next question and answer from Jesus in Matthew 19: 7-9? – They ask him why Moses said it was ok to give the wife a divorce and send her away and Jesus replied because they had hardened hearts and would not listen to what God had commanded in the beginning that the two shall become one. He reminded them again that if they do they will have committed adultery.
D. Challenge question: why does adultery break the marriage covenant? – One scripture that I stood on in my first marriage when I was praying hard for it not to end was “Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves. A cord of three strands is not quickly broken. (Ecclesiastes 4:12 NIV) to me that third strand was God and when sin comes in to our lives that 3 stranded cord is broken because God does not sin and has no part of sin so he is gone from the relationship.
E. What is the response of the disciples to this? Why, do you think? – That if that is what is commanded then it would be better to not get married at all. I think they feel this is better because they think they would not be sinning if they continued to live the way they were with many woman.
F. What does Jesus say in Matthew 19:10-12? What does this mean and how might this be applied? – That not everyone will be able to live by this command and if that is the case you should not marry and be devoted to God himself and His teaching.
I needed Spurgeon’s morning devotion today (just now getting to it!), and thought some of you may be encouraged by it too:http://www.spurgeon.org/morn_eve/this_morning.cgi
here’s an excerpt:
“Some Christians seem to be accepted in their own experience, at least, that is their apprehension. When their spirit is lively, and their hopes bright, they think God accepts them, for they feel so high, so heavenly-minded, so drawn above the earth! But when their souls cleave to the dust, they are the victims of the fear that they are no longer accepted. If they could but see that all their high joys do not exalt them, and all their low despondencies do not really depress them in their Father’s sight, but that they stand accepted in One who never alters, in One who is always the beloved of God, always perfect, always without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing, how much happier they would be, and how much more they would honour the Saviour! Rejoice then, believer, in this: thou art accepted “in the beloved.” “
AMEN! Thanks, Elizabeth.
I’ve done more of the study on paper and will transfer that here….but I’m still wondering about the Malachi passage a bit. I posed the question earlier but I’ll restate. I will say that I have only heard the verse where God says, “I hate divorce” in a punitive way in my past experience. (pretty legalistic background) Now, to be fair, I don’t think I’ve been in a study or heard a sermon on this topic for a very long time, so I am going by tapes in my mind from very long ago. I’m sure that more recent teachings from pastors/leaders I know would present it differently. I am SO grateful for the way Dee brings things into focus. So often, it’s in a way that I have never really known (even though as Rich Mullins said, “I’ve been in the church every week since I was a week old….” 😉
So….here’s my question: (I just cut and pasted from what I posted earlier).
I guess taking the whole of scripture, of course we know God hates both the cause and consequence of divorce. But, when I’m thinking of how this passage would comfort one who is the victim of divorce, I think it would be of greater impact to bring out both aspects. Are both meanings there?
As Dee stated, the Hebrew is very uncertain here, and many interpretations are possible. The subject of the word ‘hate’ is not explicit so it’s not clear who is doing the hating. It’s interesting to look at all the different English translations for that verse – try biblegateway.com
The most recent NIV has “The man who hates and divorces his wife,” says the Lord, the God of Israel, “does violence to the one he should protect” says the Lord Almighty. So be on your guard.
http://sbcvoices.com/does-malachi-216-condemn-all-divorce/
Thanks for those good resources, Kerryn. I even bookmarked the online Bible you told us about awhile ago…..but I still forget to look online. I reach for the versions I have next to my chair that I can hold in my hand and forget there is more on the computer!
Between the two of us, we’ve got it covered then, Wanda. I use my computer all the time, so that I’m lost without the internet and almost helpless without a computer.
sounds like a good team to me!
D. Challenge question: why does adultery break the marriage covenant?
There was never meant to be a “third party” in the covenant. Jesus + man and wife.
E. What is the response of the disciples to this? Why, do you think?
They reply that is better to not marry than chance divorce…..I think? the relationship between the two wouldn’t be worth anything if there was adultery involved. I think the disciples knew this and didn’t like it.
F. What does Jesus say in Matthew 19:10-12? What does this mean and how might this be applied?
He says if that is your choice then so be it. Many live that way by choice. Some have no choice; they are born that way or perhaps made that way by others. What happens with them? They just have to grin and bear it? Not sure I’m following here…..maybe they are content knowing that God is in control and knows what is best for them? They were born that way and should accept it; they were made that way by others and should accept that God is taking care of them.
Hey Rebecca, I’ve been wondering his your job is going? Been thinking about you sister!
Laura, Thanks so much for asking! It was rough at first due to a problem with an employee but I firmly believe God intervened in that. It is SO much better now and I figured out a more efficient way to do my weekly orders so I can get it in on time. I actually like my job now. 🙂
That’s AWESOME! Yay! I too, have been enjoying my job more this year. I have really nice students and I am holding firm with not working on Sundays! I think God is blessing me, as I am not really too far behind in my work (although I have an awful cold this week 🙁 ) so glad to hear your news!
2. Read Malachi 2:13-16
A. How are the men giving an appearance of godliness?
Weeping, groaning at the Lord’s altar
B. Why isn’t the Lord answering their prayers?
They have been unfaithful to their wives.
C. The Hebrew of verse 16 is difficult, but I do think Eugene Peterson caught it above. What is God saying?
God hates divorce—it is a violent tearing apart of the two that became one, in God’s sight.
D. If you are a victim of divorce or have a friend who is, how might this passage bring comfort?
I would think it brings comfort to know that God is angered by the painful reality of divorce. He is not aloof, uninterested; He is not pointing His finger at the victim criticizing their failure. He is the Defender of the weak, and He loves truth, and commitment.
A. What question in Matthew 19:3 is asked of Jesus? “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
B. How does Jesus go back to God’s plan for marriage in Matthew 19:4-6? What is He communicating about marriage and divorce? When he goes back to the creation of Adam and Eve and re-emphasizes that they were made one of each gender and that their union makes one flesh out of two people, he is getting to the heart of marriage. He goes way past the ‘rules and regulations’ that the Pharisees are asking as they try to trip him up. They are likely hoping that he will start quoting things like…..’well, you can divorce if the food is burned but not if the food is undercooked” or ” it’s okay to divorce if your wife doesn’t wear her hair the way you like it but it’s not okay to divorce if she leaves her dirty socks lying about”…….because they made up stuff to control and manipulate. Jesus, on the other hand, went straight to the truth about why and how marriage was instituted. He talked about the union, the oneness, the covenant.
C. What is the next question and answer from Jesus in Matthew 19: 7-9? Why did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?
I went back to Deuteronomy 24:1-4 and Leviticus 21:7,14 ; 22:13; Numbers 30:9 and found it interesting to see how many times divorce ‘rules’ were discussed. Divorce was permitted but highly regulated in the Books of Moses. Yet, Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount qualified the message in Matthew 5:31,32 to apply only to situations of adultery. (This passage raises some other questions in my mind, however). And then he brings it all back to Genesis in Matthew 19.
As for the ‘any and every reason’, my study Bible footnote says that there were two schools of thought contending for followers in the Jewish community at this time. The Shammai school said of the Deut. passage that ‘indecent’ meant marital unfaithfulness.
The Hillel school said ‘….who becomes displeasing to him’ which precedes “because he finds something indecent about her” can mean anything the husband doesn’t like about the wife. Jesus is clearly stating that unfaithfulness breaks the covenant….not ‘burning the toast.’
D. Challenge question: why does adultery break the marriage covenant? It’s the tearing apart of the ‘one flesh’ when another flesh, not in the marriage covenant, is introduced into the union.
So I guess I can’t divorce my husband because he left me stranded without a car this morning?! Just kidding of course…..although he did leave me stranded, I can get my son to take me to work. We are having major car problems and really need a new car but really can’t afford it 🙁
Oh Laura 🙂 Sometimes you do need humor to cope with car problems and doing the car juggle with everyone’s schedule.
Hope things work out soon. And that your day goes well!