Type and press Enter.

New here? See how to Get Started

The Varying Faces of Complimentarianism (Week One)

The Gospel Coalition has made Complimentarianism part of its core because of the belief that our view of men and women and how God has called us to work together in marriage and in the church is an issue that matters to every believer, married or single, male or female — for it affects the whole body.

Let me begin with a very basic definition of complimentarianism upon which I think most complimentarians would agree.

Men and women are of equal value in God’s sight and co-heirs together in the grace of God. Men and women are created differently to compliment one another.

In marriage,  God has called man to be the loving and sacrificial leader, as Christ was for the Church, and God has called woman to respect and submit to him, as the Church submits to Christ.

In the mystery of the Trinity, in which three are one, and yet there is an order, so it is with men and women in marriage and in the church.

This is a very basic definition and complimentarians have a great range in how they actually live this out in the home and in the church. For example, in some churches women are allowed to teach only women and children and are not in any other leadership positions. This would be true of Bethlehem Baptist (where Piper once was Senior Pastor). Other complimentarian churches would  give much more freedom to women, but would still reserve ordination for men. At Redeemer Presbyterian, where Tim Keller is the Senior Pastor, non-ordained women can do anything non-ordained men can do — including teaching men, heading committees, and leading in worship.

I had to smile to see Tim and Kathy Keller and John Piper seated next to each other on the panel at the Women’s Gospel Coalition conference, for they live out complimentarianism very differently in their respective marriages and churches, yet they showed one another respect. How that glorified God!  We will listen to this panel this week and comment. I think they did a beautiful job of expressing complimentarianism and agreeing on the basics, even though their actual life practices in their marriages and churches are as wide as the Grand Canyon.

Let me begin with a metaphor that I have heard used by both, for example, John Piper and also, Tim and Kathy Keller. Just as the Trinity has been in a dance from all of eternity, so it is with men and women.

THE DANCE

There is a beauty in the complimentarian dance that is lacking in marriages and in churches where each is listening only to his own music and each is vying to lead.

As believers, we have the music of His Spirit and His Word, and, if both are listening and responding, great beauty is possible. I liken this to a scene in The Scent of a Woman.

  • tango-al-pacino-scent-of-the-woman

 

Al Pacino plays a blind gentleman who leads the lovely Gabrielle Anwar in a tango of breathtaking beauty. It reminds me of:

There are three things which are too wonderful for me,
         Four which I do not understand:

The way of an eagle in the sky,
         The way of a serpent on a rock,
         The way of a ship in the middle of the sea,
         And the way of a man with a maid.

                                            Proverbs 30:18-19

 

Let’s see this scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2zTd_YwTvo

Here is the symbolism I love — you may see more.

  • He is gentle, not forcing her into the dance, in the manner of servant leadership. He cares about her feelings, listens to her, and they dialogue. They come to one mind and he leads her to the dance floor.
  • He is blind, as we all are in truth, without the help of God’s Spirit and the body of Christ. He consults his friend for the “perimeters” of the dance floor.

 

They both listen to the music, he leads, she responds — and together, make magic.

THE CHALLENGING PASSAGES

Complimentarians agree that there is an order in creation that should be reflected in the home and in the church. The three passages that address this are extremely challenging. As Kathleen Nielson put it, and no one on the panel spoke up to disagree: “Nobody knows what covering our heads because of the angels means!” (1 Corin 11:10) These are such challenging passages, and one contributing factor for a variety of interpretations is that some (and I am one) believe that God gives cultural examples to illustrate eternal principles. Therefore, as in the case of head coverings, the eternal principle is submission to authority, which must always be obeyed, but the cultural example is head coverings, which does not need to be obeyed today. Others believe that these are not cultural examples, but must also always be obeyed. So what do we do?

 Romans 14:10-12 makes it very clear that each of us should not judge the other, but judge ourselves, for we will each stand before God. I saw that there were women at that conference wearing hats, and I absolutely know that they do so to glorify God and I respect them for it. So though we may interpret these challenging passages differently, it is important to give each other freedom and respect, for each of us will stand before God alone, and will give an account to Him.

 There is something as Tim Keller said, that must be different about the roles of men and women from the three passages which are often quoted to support not having women in leadership positions. Not only are these three passages challenging to interpret, but we must resolve the “apparent” conflict. How can it be that God blessed women like Deborah, Priscilla, and prophetesses who were teaching men, yet 1 Timothy says, I do not permit women to teach or have authority over men? And why does Paul give instructions to women who are prophesying to the body (which is a form of teaching) if they are not supposed to be teaching the body?

The most helpful commentary I have read on this  is Inter-Varsity’s commentary on 1 Timothy by John Stott. John Stott has the respect of the evangelical world. Tim Keller says he is the one who gave us a choice between fundamentalism and liberalism, between legalism and anti-nominism. Truly, Stott’s commentary made the pieces of this very hard puzzle fall together for me. I am truly excited to share that with you. You may disagree, and I encourage you to share your views, if you express them in love and support them with Scripture. For me, it resolved the apparent conflict, and gave me the freedom, when invited to teach groups of men and women, to do so unless I sense a check from the Spirit or sense I will not be well received. In reality, I rarely teach men, and am very thankful for my ministry to women. But when I am invited by the authority of a church, and I feel a peace, and that I will be well received, I accept. Just this week I taught to a mixed audience at the end of this dock, where we have what someone has cleverly called the summer “docks-ology” services. The sunset and the music woo the tourists to come and sit down and listen to a message from Scripture that they might never have heard before. I was invited by the community to speak, I felt a peace before God, and I sensed I would be received by the tourists and believers who opted to come — and I seemed to be. One woman who came is a woman with whom I play “pickleball.” This was all new to her, but her heart was stirred that night, and she is now signed up to try Bible study! But I would not have spoken had I not been convinced, scripturally, through the help of John Stott, that I am, at times, free to teach both men and women.

Andersondock
The Setting for our summer “Docks-ology” Services

Sunday Icebreaker

1. Is this an important topic to you? Why or why not? Is it challenging to you? Why or why not?

2. What stands out to you from the above?

Monday-Wednesday Bible Study

3. Read 1 Timothy 2:8-15.

John Stott said there are three eternal principles and three cultural examples. The first eternal principle is that men ought always to pray. The cultural example is that they are to lift up their hands while praying. Must they always lift up their hands? Stott said no, for that was a cultural example.

lifting-up-holy-hands-1-728

In verse 10, Stott said the eternal priniciple is that women should adorn themselves modestly and with self control. The cultural example is that they were not to braid their hair or wear pearls or gold. (The hairstyles of that time were very elaborate, and wealthy women often employed a maid just to do their hair). Must women today never braid their hair and never wear gold or pearls? Stott said no, for that was a cultural example.

Matronalivia2
hair styles of wealthy women in Peter’s day

The third eternal principle in verses 11-12 is that women are to be submissive to authority. The cultural example, Stott said, is that they are not to teach men. May a woman teach men today? Yes, Stott said.

Having said that, we also have to realize this is a “gray issue” that falls within the exhortations of Romans 14. If it is going to be an offense, causing discord, then it might be best to refuse. Sometimes our manner can help to smooth the way. This last Mother’s Day I gave the sermon in a large church in Milwaukee. I began by explaining that I was under the authority of the Senior Pastor who had read what I was going to say. I saw some men visibly relax. I understand — and I believe I would feel the same way if I were in the congregation.

The unifying element in these three challenging passages are that women in the church should be under the authority of the male leadership of the church. It is sensitive for women to teach men, and I want to approach such opportunities with humility and gentleness. I have also felt led to opt more for a testimonial kind of speaking than straight didactic when I speak to mixed audiences for it seems to be more easily received. I do believe women are free to teach men, but that does not always mean it is always what we should do.

4. What are your comments on the above? (Please be thoughtful, loving, and type responses in Word and then cut and paste your comments.)

5. Read 1 Timothy 2:13-15.

A. Again, these are challenging verses. In the panel, both Kathy Keller and Kathleen Nielson respond to them. In either my comments or ensuing weeks, I will share what I believe them to mean, but first I’d love your comments and your interpretation of this passage. What do you believe is being taught here? (Study it yourself — don’t quote your study Bible!)

B. Comments?

    6. Read 1 Corinthians 11:2-16. Do you see an eternal principle and a cultural example in this? If so, what?

 


    7. Read 1 Corinthians 14:26-35.

        A. What is the subject matter in verses 26-33?

        B.  What else does Paul say about this in verses 34-35? Do you think this includes an eternal and a 

             cultural principle? If so, what are they? If not, what is your interpretation and why?

     8. Do you see any unifying eternal principle concerning women in all of the above passages? If so, what?

 

Thursday-Friday: Listen to the panel and share your notes and comments here.

Link – Listen Here

9. Comments and notes

Saturday:

10. What is your take-a-way and why?

Leave a Comment

Comment * If this is your first time here, please comment then fill out your name and email as stated at the bottom. Dee will approve you within 24 hours.

338 comments

  1. 6. Read 1 Corinthians 11:2-16. Do you see an eternal principle and a cultural example in this? If so, what?So confusing, that I hardly dare answer.  Cultural: men should have short hair and women should have long hair/cover their heads.    So, why are men from Bible times portrayed as having long hair in pictures and movies?   Paul asks the question,  “Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him…?” My answer would be “no, I don’t think nature teaches that.” I’m wondering what I am missing in nature??
     
    Eternal: I’m thinking that the right answer is supposed to be headship, but I’m having trouble with the rationale in vs. 7 because it says “[man] is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.” This almost implies that women were NOT created in the image and glory of God, but that seems to contradict Genesis 1:27 “God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.” (some versions use the word mankind).At the end of the section, Paul says don’t be contentious  — in the version I’m reading, it “feels like” he is saying “don’t disagree with me!”
     
    Curious: What are the criteria for determining what is eternal and what is cultural? Could it all be either cultural or eternal? It concerns me if something would be considered cultural just because we don’t do it here/now. There actually are churches that follow the whole 9 yards regarding women, head covering, etc. I wouldn’t be thrilled with that interpretation, but vs 7 seems to go beyond cultural because it is linked with the rationale for the hierarchy. Yet, Genesis says that mankind (both sexes) was created in God’s image — so maybe it all is cultural??I’m confused!

    1. Regarding nature, the males are typically the more adorned of the two; think mallard duck. Lions have long hair, but cheetah don’t. Am I being too literal here? Does Paul mean “nature” in the sense that you have a feeling inside of you that tells you that men shouldn’t wear long hair? Like an intuition? Sampson wore long hair and thought it was God given and sustained. He finally realized that his strength came from God but it had nothing to do with his hair.
       
      I was struck by the word “contentious” as well. I was thinking the people were not agreeable and Paul was acknowledging that.
       
      I can’t believe churches follow this directive, and I am sad to think that I wouldn’t want to be part of them. I hope I’m being disrespectful to God by not following these rules. Then, the Gospel says we are saved by grace too. So, perhaps  the rules aren’t as important today? Wasn’t Paul addressing Gentiles  and Jews? Didn’t they have to “get over” some of the OT rules to move on in Jesus’ time? Could that be part of this?

      1. Samson’s strength was from God, but it had everything to do with his hair.
        Judges 13:2-5 A certain man of Zorah, named Manoah, from the clan of the Danites, had a wife who was childless, unable to give birth. The angel of the Lord appeared to her and said, “You are barren and childless, but you are going to become pregnant and give birth to a son. Now see to it that you drink no wine or other fermented drink and that you do not eat anything unclean. You will become pregnant and have a son whose head is never to be touched by a razor because the boy is to be a Nazirite, dedicated to God from the womb. He will take the lead in delivering Israel from the hands of the Philistines.”
        Judges 16:17 So he told her everything. “No razor has ever been used on my head,” he said, “because I have been a Nazirite dedicated to God from my mother’s womb. If my head were shaved, my strength would leave me, and I would become as weak as any other man.”
        Judges 16:21-22 Then the Philistines seized him, gouged out his eyes and took him down to Gaza. Binding him with bronze shackles, they set him to grinding grain in the prison. But the hair on his head began to grow again after it had been shaved.

        1. Thanks for straightening me out Dawn on Sampson and his hair. I had that wrong.

      2. Laura, dear scientist!! SUCH a good point.  Nature itself seems to teach the opposite of what Paul implied in his rhetorical question.  Typically, males (e.g., lions, birds) would have longer “hair” (fancier feathers, etc).  So, does that mean that “natural” beauty is a disgrace because it would keep him from acknowledging God?? Or what could it mean?  Some “strange” cultural belief?  I probably could have handled the cultural part, but how does NATURE fit into this.   Also, maybe hair length was very related to culture, and the people to whom he wrote the book.  I see portrayals of some ancient Middle Easterners with long hair, but then think of the Greeks or Romans (?) with the bald heads except for a round “halo” of hair  — but not sure about eras.  

        1. Interesting discussion about hair length.   In the whole picture, hair seems so insignificant to me if I am to be honest.  (and then of course, there’s the baldness factor and the hygiene factor ….as for women in some third world countries who have to have their heads shaved due to lice etc…..AND the chemo-therapy factor!  So all of the above, make it seem even less like a ‘rule’ to be followed….but there must be another meaning.)   I knew of a woman who was in an extremely legalistic church who made hair length almost a superstition.  Maybe it was from the Samson story, that she came up with this, but when her granddaughter was sick…..she told the child’s parents, to be sure not to cut her hair…..as she would be sure to lose her strength if that happened.   That is extreme.  But I’m also just thinking……about the truth that we are saved by grace and we live by faith…..  I am so very grateful  for that today because I don’t think it is possible to sift through all of these differing insights and come to terms with each one.  Renee.….you are SO good at dissecting and asking questions that would never come into my mind.  I appreciate that!  (although it increases the ‘mind boggling’ quotient I am feeling!)  

        2. So Keller helped me (of course) understand, right at the end of the discussion – he mentioned John Hurley, that the covering and such and being silent…… was during times of doctrinal decision making, but other times women were ok in praying and speaking out. This answers the question Paul asked, “Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?” (‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭11‬:‭13‬ NIV)
           
          My thoughts….because God is revealed by a man having short or no hair, we wouldn’t want him to have long hair; then God wouldn’t be revealed. (Still don’t get the Samson thing here then…)
           
          “A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.” (‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭11‬:‭7)
           
          Then comes this verse, which I believe refers back to verse 7 above…..meaning, “remember what I just said ….man reveals God.
           
           
          “Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.” (‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭11‬:‭ 14-15‬ NIV)
           
          The complement of the woman to the man is to reveal man, who is revealing Christ really. Isn’t “the GLORY of man,” Christ himself? Then that means she receives the gift of modeling Christ in her behavior. The panel discusses Christ as being in submission to the Father by coming to earth, and submissive to man on earth by washing the disciples feet. So we, as women (I need to address the single woman separately because my brain is frying right now!) reflect the submission Christ reflected because He is the GLORY of man!!!! So…..two parts of the Trinity work together to make a beautiful thing! Man and woman work together to make a beautiful thing as well! His part, God the Father and her part, Christ. Oh my gosh I am scared to post this because what if I’m wrong???? I’ll be so disappointed. Let me down gently if I’m wrong…..
           
          Okay, now singles….TK says that singles are part of a church body that should also reflect this complementarianism as well. The elders are the male in the union, the body is the female in the union, and together they work , just as a marriage. I think that is the basic understanding. They also make the point that Paul is single and doesn’t marry.
           
          Better submit before I screw this up overthinking…..!
           
           

      3. So now I must address my ignorant third paragraph about not wanting to be part of a church that followed this scripture with head coverings and such. I was just that, ignorant. I didn’t know what I didn’t know! I now see that I would love to be able to display the Christ part of a union, be it marriage or within a church! This is a big reason I don’t get parts of the bible, when they are not “plainly” stated. Thank you everyone and THANK YOU DEE for helping me follow the bible well. It’s not about head coverings really, it’s about reflecting God, as man and Christ, as woman! Together, complementing each other!
         
        I went back to look at the Rembrandt as well (thanks Rebecca!) and clearly see the male and female hands! I thought to myself, wow! Rembrandt really knew his bible if he could know to paint that! It, seemingly, has nothing to do with the son’s return, unless you know your bible!! So impressed compared to our artists of today that are well known; do they even believe in God?

  2. Following this discussion quietly this week.
     
    Joyce,
    Thank you for your brave words of hope.  My our God continue to heal and encourage you deeply.
     
    I am on a rare trip with my daughter and 2 year old grandaughter, traveling from Montana yesterday to visit my other daughter and 9 month old grandaughter here in Omaha.   We have looked forward to this for so long.  My car broke down as we left town Sunday.   Some very kind and gracious friends then loaned us their new car for the trip.  We are so humbled and so very grateful.   
     
    The beautiful body of Christ in self-sacrificing demonstration of love.   
     
    Thank you all for the discussion here this week….. there’s a lot to think about.
     
     

    1. Nila – I’m thrilled to hear that you are well enough to travel with your daughter and grandchild!  And yes, the body of Christ is amazing, right?  I’m typing this on a laptop that was gifted to me this spring by my dear sister Mary Lynn and her husband Jim……they saw me struggling to keep up with communication in my fledgling business with my iphone …..they felt like the Lord showed them a need and they filled it!  I simply cannot fathom how I could have managed this busy summer season with the dogs I’ve been boarding without it!  To say nothing of the fact that I would not have even thought about contributing on this study blog!  God is SO good to us…..and He often uses His family to shower His goodness upon us!   🙂

      1. Also…so glad to hear, Nila….that you’re able to make the trip and be with family…..and both Jackie and Nila.…so good to hear how the Lord has provided!

      2. Ditto Nila! So glad your dizziness is gone and you made the trip! Thanks be to God!

    2. So glad that your dizziness is better enough that you can travel! Wonderful!

    3. Nila, I thought of you when I made an AirBnB reservation yesterday to go to DC (also looked you up as long as I was in there — will have to come your direction some time).  I appreciate that AirBnB has great alternatives to a $300/night hotel, though I think my risk level has varied because I primarily use alternative rental sites in big, expensive cities.  Good for you for doing that — what potential for outreach!

    4. Nila…Thank you….but I’m so thankful that you were able to go!!   Did the dizziness subside for you?  Sorry everyone that’s not on Dee’s facebook prayer page, Nila was so worried she would not be able to go on this much-anticipated trip because she was the driver and she was having dizziness from a viris in her ear!   PraiseGod the Doctor got it cleared up in time!!    Wish you would of had time to stop in Kearney to see me!!!So thankful for your friends that loaned you the car too!!!     Traveling Mercies!!   (Call me if your in Kearney on your way back!!   308-627-9642)

  3.     7. Read 1 Corinthians 14:26-35.
            A. What is the subject matter in verses 26-33?
     
    This is all about speaking in tongues. 
     
            B.  What else does Paul say about this in verses 34-35? Do you think this includes an eternal and a cultural principle? If so, what are they? If not, what is your interpretation and why?
     
    “Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.” (‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭14‬:‭34-35‬ NIV)

    I’m guessing there is an eternal and cultural principle here. This is difficult though…..is the eternal principle to respectfully question , or even comment, so understand occurs, and the cultural to not speak out as women, but rather have discussions within the home regarding these matters?
     
    8. Do you see any unifying eternal principle concerning women in all of the above passages? If so, what?
     
    I think if there’s a unifying principle it would be for submission of women.

    1. After listening to the panel discussion (SO GOOD), I think I was kind of on the right track here……women should listen and follow during doctrinal discussions, but other times they may speak out.

  4. 5. Read 1 Timothy 2:13-15.
    So I already know I am going to laugh at myself in about a month when I find out what this passage really means but that seems to be true these past 20+ years of walking with God! I find myself saying, wow..how could I have missed this all these years?? That was true when we studied Idol Lies..but I LOVE IT WHEN IT HAPPENS. ANNNNDDD.. IT HAPPENS FREQUENTLY WITH DEE’S STUDIES. 🙂
     
     
    I think v.13-14 is referring back to the fall. God made Adam first-then woman but I think they were equal but with different roles and the man was the head and Eve submitted BUT it wasn’t an oppressive submission-it was a willing and delightful submission to a man who loved her perfectly because they were both in perfect communion with God-He was the head-The fall hadn’t happened yet. I can’t help but go back to the Rembrandt painting of The Prodigal Son and the hands. :)) Both hands one looked feminine and the other masculine. I think both man and woman represent God’s nature. Neither one is better than the other just different roles-She completes him and he completes her but God satisfies fully both of them. This is the same with single women too! Jesus is the true husband of the married, the single the widow. 
     
    So, enter the fall…the woman was deceived first..and then things got really backwards in regard to roles on both sides and they both became control freaks. 🙂 Whereas before they were 100% trusting in and communing with God. 
     
    Laura Dancer and Dee have already given some hints into v. 15 and I have to say I agree with them. Jesus redeemed us. This verse doesn’t cover single women and women who are unable to conceive so it makes sense it is referring to Jesus and Him reversing the fall. 
     

      1. Dee, can you repost the Rembrandt? I remember it but I missed the hands bit. Thanks!

        1. Intrigued about the Rembrandt painting too…..as I wasn’t here for that lesson.  Can look it up online….but any insight about it would be a bonus!

        2. To see the hands without having to search too hard, use google images to search for Rembrandt’s Prodigal Son painting and pick one with a high resolution.  Then look at the differences between the father’s hands.

  5. 6. Read 1 Corinthians 11:2-16. Do you see an eternal principle and a cultural example in this? If so, what?
    I see that God has designed us in His image-to be his image bearers. God is the head of Christ..man is the head of the woman..and Christ is the head of man and woman. That is the eternal principle perhaps and I think this again goes back to before the fall-how He designed us. The cultural example is that women wear a head covering to show this eternal principle. 

  6. 5A. What do you believe is being taught here?
    v. 13 reiterates the order of human creation, i.e., “Adam first, and afterward…Eve”.  v. 14 tells of the fall…it was Eve that Satan approached and it was Eve that took the first bite of the forbidden fruit and encouraged Adam to do the same.  I think that Laura is right on with her thoughts of v. 15…I too think that this speaks of Jesus, who would be born of a woman and would provide saving salvation to those who believe He is the truth and way.
     
    B. Comments?
    I do believe that there is an order to our world…God created with a purpose, creativity, and intelligence that is beyond our comprehension.  Satan did choose to approach Eve rather than Adam to encourage her to doubt God…and Eve did fall for Satan’s ploy and encouraged Adam to do the same.  As Eve had, Adam also took part in disobedience, as we all have on occasion.  I think that we need to be very cautious in how we interpret texts such as this…too often they are used to “put someone” or a gender in their place rather than in the loving and thoughtful way that the Lord would have them used.  God’s plan is unfathomable to us…we do live in a fallen world, but the end result is that Mary bore Jesus who saved us all from our sinful selves…He, born of a woman, redeemed our sinful, sorry souls.

    1. Nanci,  I appreciate how you have described “order” and how you have restated what the text said…helps me to get the horse back before the cart again!  I like the order part but have a hard time with some of the wording attached to order that seems to imply that Eve was worse than or messed up more than Adam. I know this isn’t consistent with the rest of Scripture… But the order/design seems clear.  Appreciate your word of caution about careful application.

    2. I agree with you.  Too often gender bashing or gender pride is used with these verses in Genesis.  In my study, I discovered that Adam actually means mankind or humankind.  So, Genesis 1 is about the whole of creation, while Genesis 2 focuses on the specifics of creation.  First or last created is not the issue, rather the willingness to be an instrument of God.

    3. Yes, Nanci……I too appreciate the caution you have stated here.  How often we can gravitate to the divisive interpretations rather than the loving one.   And yes….’God’s plan is unfathomable to us!’  I love that concise statement….followed by clear gospel!

  7. 5A.  As so many have mentioned, the order of creation is what v. 12 is speaking of:  First, Adam….the, Eve.  In looking at Genesis, chapter 2, before the creation of Eve, it’s mentioned twice that God saw Adams’ need of a “helper fit for him” (v. 18&20).  That word “ezer” is the one we’ve all probably heard a lot about….the ezer supplies strength in areas of weakness.  The very word does seem to suggest that Eve “complimented” Adam.  That from creation, the man has areas in which he excels and so does the woman.  I think of that word that used to be used a lot back in the 80’s or 90’s – “synergy”…..”the action of two or more substances, organs or organisms to achieve the effect of which each is individually incapable”.  In the best Christian marraiges I’ve known those complimentary differences, under the Holy Spirit’s power, unleash something beautiful and powerful and fruitful.     v, 14  simply tells us that Eve was deceived and became a transgressor, while Adam was not deceived.  Obviously, just as an ezer has strengths, so we have weaknesses…..and the serpent found a weakness in Eve – and she was deceived.  In the past, I’ve heard Bible teachers allude to Adam not being where he needed to be when this encounter with Eve and the serpent was happening……clearly, Adam was with Eve when she ate the fruit and offered him the fruit (Gen 3:6), but I’m not sure that this happened in the immediate aftermath of the conversation between Eve and the serpent.  ??     Back to 1Tim.2:15……I do agree with what so many have mentioned here: that it is only through the birth of Jesus Christ into our sin riddled world that any hope of our salvation dwells.
    B.  My comments would basically be like Renee’s comment from last night…..”I’m confused”!  But I do love being shaken from my complacency and asked to look at “hard” things in the Scripture! 
    Another comment I just have to inject – I’m blown away by the respectful way in which this conversation among all on this blog has been proceeding this week…..it has definitely been a “building up” experience for me rather than a “tearing down”. 

  8. I had to laugh when I read 1 tim. Because it reminded me once again how it is so much about PRIDE! Why was eve tricked….SHE WAS PRIDEFUL!  She wanted to know more, she wanted to be smarter, she didnt want to miss anything..
    I really believe this is why Paul tells woman not to teach the men, they were prideful, they thought they knew it all and were not being teachable. I have found that most men are willing to be led if we force it. most of them just want peace and are willing to cave to get it even when that is not what God would have them do. We as women are VERY powerful, we can “turn the neck” so to speak and often we abuse that power.
    so at the risk of sounding redundent…and not knowing how to spell that word…..it is a PRIDE issue, and if our pride is in check if we are in submission to the men in our lives… then we can teach.

  9. 6.  This passage has so much mystery that I have to wonder about.  Clearly, God desires that we, in our humanity, point to Him and show the world a picture of who he is.  Thus, He has ordained an order to our relationships……the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband and the head of Christ is God.  That looks to me like an eternal principle.  Right here I have to stop and ask though:  “the head of every man is Christ”?  If a man is an unbeliever, how can that be?  At any rate…..the cultural example is a woman covering her head….and I guess it would be the man not having long hair??  Again, it was Renee who made me laugh when she was looking at v. 14, where it’s stated “Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace to him?”……she bluntly answered “no”…..and that she must be missing something in nature!   I’m with you on that one Renee!

    1. 🙂

      Jackie, good question about “the head of every man [including unbeliever?] is Christ?”  I feel as if I’ve only begun to scratch the surface on understanding this.  I expect (and even like) mystery, but I also think I could understand more if I dig more deeply.

    2. Agree with you Jackie and Renee about the hair thing.  I remember so clearly, being in high school, when kids  would use this verse in the 70’s to ‘shame’ some of the ‘hippies’ who had long hair…….that is, until the Jesus Movement made it ‘cool’ for Christian boys to have long hair too!  And all the while, the pictures of Jesus, as our example and Lord, would be upheld…. of him having long hair!  Not just confusing…..but so silly we were….There has to be a cultural application that was missing in our use and abuse of scripture!

  10. 5)B. Comments?
    I’m really looking forward to hearing the panel (and reading study notes on this!), but on my own thoughts—Adam was created first. One of us had to be first, and maybe I’m just already so bent towards male headship, when it is godly that I like that Adam is first. It feels “right”, protective in a way. I’ve always liked that it was “not good” for Adam to be alone, that God wanted him to have a helper, Eve. I have a “helper/companion” nature I guess, but I find much purpose in that role. But then the Fall, Eve was deceived, and God said her child-bearing would be cursed with pain. I’ll admit verse 15 is one I’ve almost skimmed over in the past, it has seemed to me to redeem child bearing from Genesis 3. But, I had never heard (before Laura!) that it could be referring to Jesus’ birth—I love that interpretation.
     
     6. Read 1 Corinthians 11:2-16. Do you see an eternal principle and a cultural example in this? If so, what?
     
    The eternal principle I see is that just as Christ made Himself submissive to the Father, wives are to be under the headship of their husbands. It’s so interesting when you look through this lens because, if Christ did not fight submission to His Father, why do we think it is such a bad thing? Then I think of the Trinity—not to get off topic, but Jesus and the Father and the Spirit we know are One, they are equal but different. Isn’t that somewhat the same as with male and female—the “equal but different”?
     
    The head coverings are the cultural examples—but represents a heart that is willing to play a different role and submit. Again, my submission is really, in my heart, to Christ more than specifically my husband. And I do not mean that in any way disrespectful to my husband whom I really love and am blessed by—but my obedience to my call is for the Lord. 
     

    1. Elizabeth, I appreciate your response because I’m having sorta the opposite one.  I’m so bent towards male headship (and, yuck, don’t even like to be the boss in work situations) that I am working hard (maybe too hard) to see through other lenses.  And it is wearing me out!!  But since I listened to someone talk about egalitarianism from a Biblical perspective, I want to give it a fair chance.  I love your emphasis on submission to Christ, especially since I don’t have a husband 😉    though, I still am thinking about how this includes mutual submission & respect with everyone, to a degree anyway.  

  11. IMPORTANT WARNING RE YOUR CREDIT CARD:
    If you have ever used Tim Keller’s website to purchase sermons, please read this. I received my credit card statement to discover that my information had been stolen and someone had charged purchases amounting to a few hundred dollars that were not mine. I hardly ever use my credit card so I believe the information was stolen from the Redeemer website that I sometimes purchase Tim Keller sermons online. As most of you know, the Redeemer website had a security breach from May to mid July 2014 and had notified all its customers at the end of July. Because I had not used the site during that period, I believed I was safe. However, I was not. I have now cancelled my credit card and notified them of the breach occurring to me. Here is the response I received:

    I’m sorry to hear that you had fraudulent activity on your card. Just so you know, the dates are specific to when our site was vulnerable. That means that thieves could have stolen the information during that period, however they could have used the information at any point down the line (just as if they physically stole your card).

    If I understand this correctly, anyone who has previously purchased anything from their site could possibly have had credit card information stored in Redeemer’s records might have had it stolen. Please watch your credit card information and my suggestion is that you should cancel your credit card and get a new one just in case, to be on the safe side. It’s a sad world we live in, but we have to deal with it nonetheless. 

    1. 🙁     Thanks for sharing this Diane.  I guess I will need to check my credit card bills.  I don’t think I stored my cc# on their site (ordering was a pain because I wasn’t always motivated to type in my credit card #), but I should double check.

    2. Diane,   thank you for warning all of us.   I have to say that I have been concerned about that very thing, and that is the reason I have only used the free sermons.   I really didn’t even like giving that information.     I’m so sorry that you had to suffer financial loss while trying to do something good — not fair!     

      1. Deanna, when I called my credit card provider and reported the misuse of my card, they told me that I wouldn’t be charged for the misuse as long as I was willing to sign an affidavit swearing that I had not spent that money. They have taken it off my bill. I am so grateful. Unfortunately, this is probably something they have to deal with a lot. 

  12. Guess where I was this morning? Way back in the very first post starting our study of the Psalms! Re-listened to Mike Reeves’ intro to the Psalms, reviewing the first three psalms. I’m not ready to leave the psalms yet…seeking refreshment and still gleaning more. And I needed to remember again the truths we’ve learned!
    But I’m still reading comments this week. Love that Rebecca and Laura brought up the Rembrandt painting again…always loved that and the hands of the father in the painting; one looking like the hand of a man and the other more like the hand of a woman. Showing the strength yet tenderness of God the Father.

    1. Susan.….do you remember which lesson included the Rembrandt painting?   I guess I could go back and find it there too…very intriguing!

      1. Wanda, we’ve actually discussed the Rembrandt painting a few times, but here is one of the most recent: http://deebrestin.com/2013/02/older-brother-ishness-melting-hearts-moving-toward-easter/
        Have you read Nouwen’s The Prodigal Son? That is one of my very top favorites–life changing for me. 

        1. Like!

        2. Thanks, Elizabeth!    I have not read ‘the Prodigal Son’ by Nouwen…..(nor ‘the Prodigal God’ by Keller)…….both on my ever growing proverbial ‘to read’ list!  I highly respect your recommendation so maybe that is one of my next!

  13. 7. Read 1 Corinthians 14:26-35.        A. What is the subject matter in verses 26-33?
     
    I know it is technically about tongues and spiritual gifts, but when I read it, I think it is about “making every effort to be at peace”. There is an emphasis on being considerate of one another, careful to do what is best for the Body—not creating confusion or dissension, but peace.
     
            B.  What else does Paul say about this in verses 34-35? Do you think this includes an eternal and a  cultural principle? If so, what are they? If not, what is your interpretation and why?
     
    I just read the MSG version on these verse and thought it was interesting: “Wives must not disrupt worship, talking when they should be listening…” That gives a very different feel than believing women should be silent in the Church. I admit as a woman, we are possibly more prone to talk, to gossip even, to disrupt in that way. I think Paul’s instruction was both specific to the Church he was speaking to, but has implications for us. I do not think though he is in any way saying a woman shouldn’t teach in the Church.
    We are all called to go out and make disciples. And, we just read in 1 Cor. 11:5, that a woman is allowed to pray (with her head covered at the time, culturally). So it does not mean she cannot pray. I think the focus of this passage and the one regarding tongues above, is that we keep our heart motives in check. The goal is to be one Body that comes together in worship—not compete or create dissention and confusion, but promote growth in the Gospel and peace. 
     
    8. Do you see any unifying eternal principle concerning women in all of the above passages? If so, what?
     
    To embrace the beauty of the God-ordained specific role He has uniquely created for us. We are not a “second thought”, we are not “less than” in any way. We do not need to prove ourselves or have the same roles as men in order to be equal with them. See submission as a beautiful Christ-like act, for Him, to Him.
     

    1. Elizabeth, I tend to agree with you on the verses 26-33.  This, to me is the eternal principle.  Reading your response to verses 34 and 35 reminded me of a pet peeve I have in our new “tech” age, people texting during a meeting.  Can’t you see the “new interpretation” 10 years from now – ‘and to get the most out of your experience in church, saints, please refrain from texting during the service.  For if you text, then your mind may wander from the message and teaching of the day and you might distract others, also.”  
      I am reminded that these verses may be directed to women because women were not educated.  Schooling was reserved only for the males of the family, thus, questions from smart women might arise during the course of the service, but the mere asking of the question could and probably would distract those seated around the questioner.  Is this not the same practice we try to teach our kids?  Please hold your questions until there is a break in the service, or until you get home, or until the teacher asks if there are any questions?  It may have been said just to address common courtesy, again suggesting the principle is order and peace.

      1. Sherryl–you made me smile with the tech reference! I am trying to guard my words here, but sometimes I wish hand-held technology wasn’t allowed in Church….I think for me, just seeing someone else’s ipad can distract me, but that’s more my problem than theirs I realize–and of course, I still use a paper calendar too, so I know I’m a minority in the tech world 😉
        I love the depth you bring to these verses–“Schooling was reserved only for the males of the family”–excellent point.

      2. I love your modern application, Sherryl. Many in my church use their smartphones/ipads to look up verses and to take notes in the sermon, so it’s hard to tell who’s texting or updating Facebook.

        1. I often use my smart phone for a Bible in church, but I don’t think I’ve ever checked FB or texted.  I wonder how much of what we see is simply habit and socialization.  I use my phone for a watch/clock and just don’t think of doing the other tasks during meetings.  If I tried taking notes on my phone, I’d probably be distracted, too.

    2. 7. Read 1 Corinthians 14:26-35.        A. What is the subject matter in verses 26-33?
      Thanks for that perspective from ‘the Message’,  Elizabeth.   That really does give a different feel.  I confess I have not looked up context or original text meanings or anything here….but I just like that we can see how sometimes, the intention of these ‘rules’ may have been so much different and of so much less significance than the ways, they have been made into ‘set in stone’ statutes in some arenas.   Also like Sherryl’s comments below, about texting.  So many cultural things distract worship today.  Bringing  coffee or soda into the sanctuary?  (or worship center)  That’s a personal pet peeve of mine.   Every culture is going to have something that has the potential to draw us away from the teaching and worship.  Might it have been, that Paul, simply called out ‘women’ because that is who he saw being distracting at the time of his writing?    Could he also have said ‘men shouldn’t be whispering to each other with fishing and hunting stories’ ? (as is known to happen!)  during worship and teaching?   I surely don’t know.  Just makes me wonder.   Especially in light of vs. 26 that says clearly that ‘everyone’ should take part.  I see most of this passage as talking a lot about respect and honor…..showing God honor, by honoring each other too.

  14. 7A.  The subject matter in 1 Cor 14:26-33 is community worship.  How that should be orderly and what it should look like when believers come together to worship the Lord!  The goal would be that “all things be done for building up.” (v. 26), for “our God is not a God of confusion but of peace.” (v. 32).  Isn’t this a part of what the unbelieving world needs to see in flesh and blood?  That our God is a God of peace.  We have the great opportunity to reflect that peace in how we order our community worship.  Basically….don’t be RUDE to one another!  Listen to one another and be humble and gentle and willing to “take your turn”, etc!! 
     
    7B.  Well, it’s hard to ignore that v. 34 begins with “the women should keep silent in the churches, ” and follows right on the heels of v. 33 speaking of our God being a God of peace.  v. 35 instructs women to “ask their husbands at home.”.  I truly want to be respectful here, but I have to shake my head at this verse.  I simply don’t get it- at least IF it is an “absolute”.  I wonder, where does that leave you if your husband is an unbeliever and doesn’t believe in the authority of Scripture?  Obviously, asking him questions about Scripture is NOT going to promote peace!  Once again…..I have a lot to learn.

  15. 8.  I think that part of the eternal principle I see is that God wants me to be who He created me to be – a woman!  To take great delight in seeing that Eve was created to be an “ezer”…..and that is a role of strength.  That how that plays out in my own life should be, first of all, in submission to Christ.  That will include humility in my relationships and in my worship.  I should have no fear whatsoever of God’s ordained authority in this life – because Jesus is my example in setting aside all that He had with the Father and the Spirit in heaven to come to earth in such humility.  As Christ’s body on earth, when we are living this way, the watching world sees the peace of God – and He is glorified! 

  16. 5. Read 1 Timothy 2:13-15.
    Adam was not deceived… so he understood what God had said and rebelled anyway.
    It was the woman who was deceived… does that imply that Eve did not fully understand what God had said? After all, she had probably learned second hand through Adam. It is important that women have the opportunity to learn (v11), so they are equipped to deal with Satan’s wiles.
    But women will be saved through childbearing…  NIV has this plural, but in the Greek it is singular. It’s not talking about all childbearing, but one particular birth! On the other hand her childbearing brought about salvation, reversing Eve. (The Message) Oops, that’s almost like quoting a study Bible… I have looked at quite a few versions of this passage. But Petersen does make it clear that ‘saved through childbearing’ refers to Christ. Paul is hardly going to say salvation comes from anywhere else though.

    1. Kerryn, Thanks for indicating that the Greek is singular.   One of the place I still am stuck is that “it was the woman who was deceived…”  And Adam disobeyed — seems as if that would rule out both of them

      1. If it was that the cultural norm that only men learn, then perhaps Paul is pointing out why it is important that women learn as well. So not saying that either Adam or Eve were worse sinners… they both sinned, but in different ways. Let the women learn too, so they will not be deceived…

        1. Good thought, Kerryn! ……..I’m gaining so much from seeing how God gives insight to others here.

  17. 6. Read 1 Corinthians 11:2-16. Do you see an eternal principle and a cultural example in this? If so, what?
    Eternal principle… give glory and honour to God.
    Cultural example… women give honour to God by covering their heads, having long hair. Men give honour to God when their heads are uncovered and they have short hair.

  18. 4. What are your comments on the above? (Please be thoughtful, loving, and type responses in Word and then cut and paste your comments.) I understand the cultural vs eternal principals and appreciate Stott’s perspective. The stand out part to me is that the amplified Bible says women are not allowed to teach in the assembly. I wonder if this was because women were getting emotionally worked up and “hi-jacking” the service, either emotionally or with incorrect teaching that had to be corrected? Weren’t women not allow to study in depth in the Jewish culture? Could this be part of it? That women were encouraged to “learn in quiet” but not to speak out (perhaps before they were educated?). Especially with the new challenge of Christ’s “new law”? The connection with Eve being deceived (by her emotions) I wonder if this is a clue to why they were to be submissive in quietness in the assembly. It takes a while to process emotions and get grounded. I see personal application for myself. (I haven’t had to time to read comments yet, will.)

    1. Bless you, Dee.   Enjoy them all!  (as of this evening, we are down to 2 adult children and 1 grandchild and even at that, I am more tired than usual :)) 

    2. Wow, Dee! 22 bodies to feed and sleep! Does your home have expandable sides? 🙂 Have a great time! 

      1. That is so awesome Dee…to have all your family there to celebrate your birthday friday!!!

        Diane…so sorry about your credit card at Redeemer:(   The evil one is everywhere!

    3. Hope you get some relaxation during your birthday week, too 😉    So glad your whole family is with you, Dee.  Praying for a blessed celebration!

    4. What a house-full, Dee…but what fun! You are so blessed to have them all there with you to celebrate your birthday!

  19. I read Kathy Keller’s book, Jesus, Justice, & Gender Rolesthis afternoon (which means I will be working a lot during the weekend!)  Interestingly, the one church I’ve belonged to which best fit her description technically was egalitarian, and included ordained (?) female elders.

     What I liked about the book(let), and my challenges with it
    (Like)
    The structure:  She started with “hermeneutical imperatives,” including how to discern what the Bible is saying, a summary (not sure that’s the word) of what the Bible is saying, and then indicated that “we have to obey the Bible.”   The two hermeneutic ground rules she shared were that 1) Scripture doesn’t contradict Scripture, and 2) every text must be understood in its context — historical, cultural, and social. This was well written, and almost everyone, complementarians and egalitarians, in my Christian circles would agree.

    (Challenge)  Then she indicated that she was jumping into the “deep end of the pool” and addressed what Scripture says about texts that have been controversial (i.e, “texts of terror”).  This is where I wanted MORE application of the hermeneutical ground rules.  Even though I’ve been immersed in complementarianism, I couldn’t follow how she applied the ground rules to reach her conclusions.  Plus, she brought up the rule that Scripture doesn’t contradict itself (and unless I dozed when I was reading — a possibility, even though it was very interesting), she didn’t address the texts which led to questions for me or seemed potentially contradictory to me.

    Interesting (and raised more questions in my mind):  Her discussion of gender roles is anything but stereotypical.  She does say that gender roles are to be rejoiced in and enjoyed.  She supports the public ministry of women in the church and concludes that the only role women shouldn’t take on that men have is “teaching with authority”  (e.g., ordained elders in the Presbyterian church).  To her credit, she doesn’t get into using stereotypes about gender roles that vary from culture to culture and over time.I have heard rules in church about what women won’t be allowed to do.  She describes a couple of those rules almost word for word and describes them as embarrassing and extra-Biblical.  My jaw still is hanging down because I know people would have been mad if they heard her comments at the time rules were imposed.  

    More questions:  What gender roles relevant to church that are to be supported and enjoyed? (here, the gender roles seem to be “women = men minus one role”).  What is ordination? Does it mean different things in different denominations and congregations?  My church definitely doesn’t ordain women, but laying of hands/prayer for everyone serving in church offices, teaching Sunday School etc.    She also discusses the importance of people with final authority “before the existence of a written canon.”  Makes sense to me  — SO, we now have the authority of the written canon.  How does that impact the position of pastors/elders?  And what is a pastor?  (haven’t looked to see exactly how pastor is defined in Scripture.  It seemed so basic until I got into this).  Is a pastor the same as someone “teaching with authority?” Not all denominations require college and seminary for pastors.  Ordination doesn’t have the same standards across denominations.
    Another question:  So, we need to have equality, unisex, equal roles in the workplace in order to avoid unfairness — because we live in a fallen world?? I’m sure I read that someplace in the book.  WHY?  Aren’t we supposed to be salt and light in the world?  OR  Isn’t the church also impacted by the fallen world?  I don’t get the logic on this one.

     More strengths:   The end notes.  I read them all!  I don’t think I was able to completely navigate Presbyterianism even after 5 years;  I understood most of the doctrine, but didn’t quite get the church government.  Her endnotes demonstrate how the form of church government is related to doctrine.  I was surprised at how much I appreciated congregational meetings with a hierarchical form of church gov’t, but I’ve also come to appreciate praying for what is almost close to consensus and realize that congregational gov’t doesn’t have to be divisive  (This also is a little puzzling to me because it happens that the churches with congregational forms of gov’t to which I’ve belonged have been  hard core complementarians, and the hierarchical gov’t was more egalitarian — but I know that isn’t true across the board.  You’d think that a democracy in church gov’t would be more likely to produce equality in church roles).    In an endnote, she also described some who believe that women could be priests, but not the bishop (Anglican).  I guess this is a logical extension of women teaching under someone in authority.  So, maybe we will see her influence the Catholic church, male Pope and male or females in equal roles underneath???   🙂

    Back to the structure:  Personal experiences and desire to use spiritual gifts come after “what the Bible says.”  I totally agree.  There are testimonies/personal experiences of “what works” on both sides of the aisle  — and by starting with personal experiences, I will get/affirm whatever results support my assumptions.  And the votes will be skewed based on the culture of the group or the day.

    My verdict:  The book was well-written.  I liked that she presented 2 hermeneutical ground rules.  And in such a short book, she wouldn’t be able to thoroughly apply them.   The book was worth several hours of my time.  However, I was disappointed that the book didn’t answer any of my questions; if anything, it raised more questions.  I either need to spend much more time studying Scripture or read books that are more thorough.  Because I have  heard the case for complementarianism forever, I likely won’t be satisfied until I study the Biblical bases for egalitarianism and/or address the passages of Scripture than seem contradictory.  
     
    Because many egalitarians also believe in complementary roles and because Kathy Keller didn’t address gender roles in much detail, she seemed more egalitarian than some egalitarians — except she believed that women shouldn’t be the top authority in the church.  Interesting read, good approach, and I’m as confused as ever!  Many times, I wanted to ask her “What did you mean by…?”  “What about…?, or say “tell me more.”  Oh boy, one more question.  She does seem to teach with authority in this book, so would it be inappropriate for men to read it? or men in her church?

    1. Also found it interesting that she referred to Philip Payne, an egalitarian, when making her case, though she didn’t indicate he was egalitarian.

    2. Renee – Kathy Keller’s book that you just reviewed for us is to arrive at my home today!  You did an amazing job whetting my appetite to read it!  For as long as I can remember I’ve been “comfortably complimentarian”……but this week has really stirred me up to dig deeper – which is a fantastic thing.  Perhaps you are aware of this woman Marg Mowczko and her website http://www.newlife.id.au.  She teaches from the egalitarian point of view.  She is a scholar and her work, at least at first read, seems to reflect that!   I have a hunch that you could get lost in this website…..she has a whole section of articles on “The ‘Difficult’ Passages”, including certainly the ones we’ve been looking at this week.  She looks carefully at the church in Ephesus (where Timothy was when 1 Tim was written) and digs deeply into Hebrew and Greek work meanings, etc.  For instance, I often refer to the Hebrew word “ezer” from Genesis, used to describe Eve’s role as Adam’s wife.  Marg pointed out that the actual words are “ezer kenegdo”…….and that opens a whole lot more questions!!!  Isn’t this such fun??      After all of the heartbreak I experienced over leaving my church several years ago…..when it was this specific issue that tore the church apart…..this is very hard for me to revisit.  But I feel like the Lord has been healing my heart over these past years and the time has come to delve back in and try to understand more deeply His Word.  I would be shocked if I came out “the other side” of this issue as an egalitarian……but I do want to truly understand and respect my brothers and sisters in Christ who come from this perspective. 

      1. Jackie, Love the phrase “comfortably complementation.”   haha — that describes me, too.  Oh dear, I think I could get lost on her website!!!  Today, I “get” to get lost in mtgs at work starting in a little while and going into the evening.   I think I WOULD think this was fun if it weren’t such a crazy week (and I’m a little afraid to move on without having my most central questions clear).   For me, the issue also primarily one of understanding and respect.  Right now, most of the churches I would consider attending are complementation anyway…and I do NOT have a burning desire to be in any leadership positions (too many responsibilities right now).  I am so sorry for the pain you have experienced over this issue and for the division it led to in church.  

      2. Jackie…thats a nice website! 

        It’s so hard when a church splits up.  The one I use to love and attend all the time got rid of my favorite, wonderful, Senior Pastor (of our  town) …then everyone split up.  It hurt really bad:

        How is your daughter doing Jackie?  I’m keeping her in my prayers.  I couldn’t get you on the facebook site to ask.

        1. Joyce – thanks for asking about Jes!  She just started back (last week) on a chemo regimen and the plan is for at least the next 6 months – no breaks. She had been on a 4 month break from chemo prior to starting back….due to some pretty severe immunity issues, for lack of a simpler way of saying it.  Her spunk amazes me….but it’s a tough journey, no question about it!  Her Dr. (gynecological oncologist) is unreal….he continues to go to the mat for her….it’s not unusual for him to personally call her on the weekend to just “check in”….or to talk further about something they were discussing during the week, etc.  Ovarian cancer statistics are rather dreadful – long term survival rates are grim, to say the least.  As excruciating as this walk has been, the Lord has really used it to continually open my eyes to what really matters – eternity.  What my prodigal Jes needs most of all is a relationship with God…..even so much more than healing from cancer.  Your prayers mean so MUCH to me, Joyce.  I do pray for your Kendra as well.  Being relatively new here, I can’t place Kendra’s age…..or how many other children you have and where they live – though I know you do have other children (at least that’s what I’m thinking!!).  And, where is the Facebook page where people are posting prayer requests?  I’m mostly “invisible” on Facebook – at least as much as possible! – but I looked at Dee’s FB page once and clearly that wasn’t the “private” one!  Well, encouragement is a beautiful thing.  You have lifted my heart with yours! 

      3. Jackie R, thanks for the update on Jes. It is a good help in knowing what to pray about her. 
         
        As for the Facebook page where we post prayer requests, search on FB for “Dee’s Bible Study Friends” and request to join. If you cannot find it, you could search for me (Diane Trail) and ask to “Friend” me and then I can add you.  Renee and I are co-administrators of the page. It is secret so no one except members see posts.

        1. It’s good to know that the facebook page for prayer requests cannot be found…..by searching…..because that reassures me that the privacy settings are working!  Since it’s set as a ‘secret’ group a person has to be added.  When I’ve posted something personal, I always hope the privacy settings are as they say they are!  Good to know.

    3. Appreciate the book review Renee. The terms complementarian and egalitarian are new to me in this context, so I’m not quite ready to put myself on the spectrum. (Though Australia is reputedly an egalitarian society, so I suspect I have cultural leanings in that direction.) Mostly, I’ll get along with anyone as long as they’re not so certain they’re right that I have to be wrong, and I get the impression I’d get along fine with Kathy Keller.

      1. Kerryn,  
        “Mostly, I’ll get along with anyone as long as they’re not so certain they’re right that I have to be wrong,”     ME, TOO!

    4. Renee.…..have I ever told you how much you amaze me?  (that’s a rhetorical question!)  Here you are again, taking so much time and effort and going so deep to mine insight.  I really appreciate all the work you put in!  (I also admit to being an underachiever 😉 )

      1. ha! I wouldn’t label you as an underachiever!  I realized during a presentation at work today is that the way I identify questions and gaps is my approach at work, too — although I don’t feel as if I’ve gotten in deep enough yet in this study.

    5. ….haven’t read your review yet, but your last question stood out and already has me………   Never even thought about how this whole discussion fits with reading teaching that was written by men vs. women.   Wow.

    6. thanks, Renee, for sharing from your reading of the book. I find it is interesting to know her position and she has so much background in this area. It is also confusing to me. I want to understand and yet find that the custom regarding women’s headcovering is definitely  hard to understand.

      1. Shirley, If I lived in NYC, I wouldn’t have been able to be so complacent about this issue for as long as I have 😉

    7. That was awesome Renee!!

  20. What stood out the most for me this week: “Men and women are of equal value in God’s sight and co-heirs together in the grace of God. Men and women are created differently to compliment one another.
    In marriage,  God has called man to be the loving and sacrificial leader, as Christ was for the Church, and God has called woman to respect and submit to him, as the Church submits to Christ.
    In the mystery of the Trinity, in which three are one, and yet there is an order, so it is with men and women in marriage and in the church.”
    Hello Sweet sisters! 
    Loving all of the discussions this week. I have decided I like Dee’s take on this topic. I attend a church much like John Piper, a very conservative southern Baptist Reformed church, with an organ, piano and boat loads of hymnals! 🙂 women NEVER teach men in my church. But I do feel that from time to time, if you have the pastors covering, it is ok. I’m not talking about, leading a sermon on Sunday, but sharing, yes, I think it is ok if Holy Spirit lead. I feel that all of the answers to this is in Genesis, the order of  the creation of male and female, but if God choose to communicate with Adam and Eve, I’m quite sure He didn’t just commune with Adam, and in return Adam would share with Eve. No our God love relationship with us, and Loves talking with His children, male and female And if we are made in His likeness, then it’s only natural for us to want to share a burden on our hearts, with our sisters and brothers. I’m not sure if this makes sense? But I feel, based on the stories in Genesis and stories woven throughout the bible God loves us sharpening one another. By the way, if I’m quiet, it’s because I received idol lies and I am devouring it! Praying for you all. Dee, my daughter is soooo coveting your lake house!  She is 10 and she watches the idol lies videos with me, never to early to expose children to this truth of idols! Xoxoxox

    1. Roshanda….was wondering about you!   So glad your reading  Dee book and your daughter enjoying the videos!! 

    2. Roshanda……I enjoy your contributions here!  My church is also conservative in many arenas …. (sometimes, more than I agree with)….but how I long for an organ and a boatload of hymnals again!  as we have not seen those for a very long time.   Many of the churches I have experienced who still appreciate and use hymnals are so very liberal in their doctrines.  Seems so very hard to find the place that really feeds my soul with both music and teaching……but I am very grateful that I can come here.  I think I should order the video!  I read the book…..but have not taken the time to let it all sink in….though I learned so much.  

  21. My thoughts on the hair discussion.  As far as the length goes, when we are talking about how men in paintings and such had “long” hair, I don’t think that shoulder length hair is what they are speaking of. It’s probably more likely that they are referring to hair that goes down the back. That kind of hair length would be very impractical for any man in war, farming or even the priests in sacrificing and such.
    I think the hair as a covering is symbolic. God is the head of Christ. Christ is the head of man. Man is the head of woman. There is no covering between God and Christ. There should be no covering between Christ and man because Christ’s leading is perfect and there doesn’t need to (and should not) be a barrier. Man is to take Christ fully, unfiltered and reflect his glory. There needs to be a covering for the woman to protect her from the imperfect leadership of her husband.

  22. 7. Read 1 Corinthians 14:26-35.
            A. What is the subject matter in verses 26-33?
    That in whatever we do, prophesying-teaching, speaking in tongues, etc.. the purpose is to build up the church and God has an order he designed to accomplish that.
            B.  What else does Paul say about this in verses 34-35? Do you think this includes an eternal and a cultural principle? If so, what are they? If not, what is your interpretation and why?
    Women should remain silent and not speak but be in submission in churches. If they want to question something they should ask their husbands at home. Eternally we are in submission to Christ first and foremost and should be wise and careful with our tongues before we speak always consulting Jesus first in these matters. Not sure about the cultural principle.
         8. Do you see any unifying eternal principle concerning women in all of the above passages? If so, what?
    Maybe I am wrong but I see that this whole passage is referring to women otherwise why would he bring women into it at the end? Perhaps this is about women who have the gift of prophecy and tongues and the order for them which God designed-they go to their husbands first if they have a revelation or interpretation to share? Maybe if it is one that could be divisive??

    I have a question..If it is disgraceful for women to speak in church then why do they have these gifts? There must be something I am missing in this passage! :/
     

    1. Very good question Rebecca!

    2. Rebecca, You asked a very good question.  I think we have to remember that there are two ways to look at the church:  a building where official worship takes place and as the body of Christ (I am the church, you are the church, we are the church together… [a song in the United Methodist hymnal]).  The gifts are for the body of Christ to function as a team in glorifying God.  Sometimes, as we read the Scriptures we confuse the two definitions.  That said, still a great question, especially for me as I have the gift of prophecy.  In my case, and I would do this if I were a male and not in charge of a local body, I speak to my husband, the pastor first about my concerns.  I give him the opportunity to address the issue first, if he thinks it would be better coming from him.  If, I am in a situation, as I often am as a Bible teacher in a church sponsored class, then I will step up and address the issue.  I will only do this if the Spirit leads me to address it.  I then, always inform the pastor, my husband.  I followed the same practice as a teacher for 30 years.  I address the issue in the classroom and made sure the principal knew so he or she would not be blindsided.  Again, it is all about order and peace.
      As for my tech reference, teaching since the advent of cell phones has caused me to have to become creative with the use of tech devices in the classroom.  I have no problem with people using them for note taking, following Scripture, etc., but it is up to each individual to concentrate on the issue or task at hand.  I have been in conversations with bosses and students where they get so distracted by the tech device, that I wonder if they really wanted my attention at all.

  23. 6. Do you see an eternal principle and a cultural example?
    Eternal principle:  order and interdependence; reverence when worshiping God
    Cultural example:  directives on hair length and head coverings for public worship
     
    7A. What is the subject matter in v. 26-33?
    respectful order in worship…making sure that there is clear understanding and a peaceful atmosphere maintained.
     
    B. What else does Paul say about this in v. 34-35?  Do you think this includes an eternal and a cultural principle? If so, what? If not, what is your interpretation and why?
    Paul says in v. 34-35 that women should not speak in worship, but should remain quiet.  He says that if they have a question they should wait to ask their husband for explanation at home.  My opinion is that this is largely cultural based.  As was mentioned previously, the women of this day were not as well versed in the teachings due to education provided to men/boys and women/girls differing (women/girls lacking).  So it is clear to me, as others have mentioned, in that time it would likely have been a distraction for women to ask questions the were quite simplistic to most others; it would make sense for her to ask for clarification at a later time.  My thoughts are that this is in part an eternal principle also…it is important that if anyone (male or female) is in a teaching or worship atmosphere that is “way over their head,” they not distract or re-direct the group.  Because of the variety of education opportunities and levels that are available for all (male and female), it is less likely that this would be a problem today.

    1. Here is Paige Benton Brown at 2012 GC Women’s Conference (link on GC’s site not working): 
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgYk7fuCZeE&index=5&list=PLPwoFK1MBpm5_9WDrFYhKwhtijAXW9wP8
      All the other workshops from that conference are also on this site: 
      https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLPwoFK1MBpm5_9WDrFYhKwhtijAXW9wP8

      1. Thank you Elizabeth!

    2. Dee-tried to post the GC conference link, but it said my comment was marked for moderation–ahhh–there it is! 🙂

    3. Thanks, Dee.  This helps me clarify my remaining questions.   I think the biggest one hinges on “order” (of creation) and how to read that in light of verses that seem to level it out (e.g., women were first to the tomb, men were first in some bad stuff, neither male nor female, man born of a woman).A related question is how to separate cultural from eternal principles.  e.g., how do I know that male headship isn’t cultural? I still haven’t had time to dig deeply so mostly the same questions keep swimming around in my mind.  It doesn’t appear that egalitarians are arguing for female headship, but rather mutual submission to God and to each other.  I know that I won’t be able to dig too deeply for awhile, though I can get completely lost in the subject.  Right now, I’m seeing a couple gaps that would lead me to avoid drawing any conclusion. I’m not seeing much difference between some egalitarians and complementarians (except overtly sexist ones).  Both use the Bible as a foundation for what they believe (though extreme ends of both seem to rely on other sources more than the Bible).  Both believe in complementary roles.  Both believe in submission.   So, the linchpin seems to me (at the moment) to be how “order” is used to justify male headship — and the degree to which “headship” is a cultural issue.Thanks — not trying to be obnoxious about this, and I don’t have much stake in an outcome.  But I want to be open enough to keep digging until I clearly understand Scriptural support for any position.  

  24. Dee–this is one of Paige Benton Brown you had us listen to back in 2012 also, but it was not from the GC conference. It’s the one called “The Responsive Heart”–it was so good!
    http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/4197493

    1. Thanks, Elizabeth!  I remember that one — will try to find the other one, too — later.

  25.     7. Read 1 Corinthians 14:26-35.  A. What is the subject matter in verses 26-33?
    Principles for orderly worship so the church is strengthened, encouraged, instructed.
            B.  What else does Paul say about this in verses 34-35? Do you think this includes an eternal and a cultural principle? If so, what are they? If not, what is your interpretation and why?
    Paul says that women must be silent, must not speak. As Scripture doesn’t contradict Scripture (thanks Renee), this cannot be an eternal principle. It cannot even be a blanket rule for the Corinthian church, since Paul approved women praying and prophesying in public worship just 3 chapters earlier. Even the interpretation that says that women cannot exercise spiritual authority is doubtful, since prophets have considerable spiritual authority. It is clear that Paul is prohibiting some women somewhere at sometime from doing something. There are at least 7 interpretations from reputable scholars about what, where and when that prohibition applies. It’s a mystery to me.
    Eternal principle: worship is for strengthening the church.

  26. Oh my. My brain hurts. 
     
    5B. I wonder if the reference to Adam came first has to do with Gods design? While most other relationships come culturally (slavery for ex.) the marriage relationship was the first and is eternal (as in it will always be a part of culture). So while the gender roles came after the fall, the relationship was before the fall? Did God create Adam first to have him be the head? We associate this with all the controversy of our day but in the beginning there was none of that? 
     
    I found that that the language used in this passage is different than similar passages (I will include link below). The language in this passage indicates a usurping of authority, a manipulative seizing of what is rightfully someone else’s. This may apply to the fall as well. Eve usurped Adams authority in manipulating him to do what she wanted. (In genesis it just says she gave some to her husband but in 1Timothy the blame seems to fall to Eve).
     
    Another thing that I found was that the references to woman’s dress could have been more of pride thing. Showing their stature and looking down upon the poor in their congregation. So again, we encounter pride in women. 
     
    The eternal principal is a quiet, humble spirit. Especially? for women in our tendency to be emotional but for men as well. 
     
    This is commentary was very helpful to me as it presented all the issues involved in this passage without having a bent towards a specific view. https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/1Tim/Men-Women-Worship

  27. Well, weird–I did post her GC 2012 talk–and my post showed up, and then it was gone, and then I thought my post showed up again, but now it’s gone again! It was a link for her talk and then another link of all the talks. I posted it before I posted the heart one…? Anyway, they are all on youtube…I’ll try again later, at work now 🙂

    1. Dee, thanks for clarification on eternal principles.  This helps a lot.  I can’t even imagine having 22 people at my house 🙂    I’d probably feel a little less confused if my brain weren’t on  overload at work, too, right now.  I’m finishing up a federal grant at the same time school is gearing up (after being gone for awhile).  Please forgive me for posting questions that reflect insufficient thought.  I’m thinking all the time, but in so many different directions that I probably should back off here.  But I REALLY WANT TO KNOW 🙂

        1. Listened to panel last night… excellent! But I didn’t take notes because I was doing something else.  Actually, I think I was going back and forth between email and trying to find Paige Benton Brown’s talk on women.  I started listening to another one by her, which was excellent, but I stopped listening because it wasn’t the topic of my hunt (periodically and when buried, I do focus 😉    I’d like to dig deeper into under standing “order” — certainly see it in some things in Scripture, so I’d like to have a more thorough understanding of what Scripture says roles of men and women.  I may bring up those gaps in my thinking after Labor Day.  Thanks, Dee!

        2. He is a God of order! He brought order out of disorder and chaos. Sometimes order implies hierarchical structure, but not always. Any orderly arrangement can be order even if it is not hierarchical.
          I’m not sure if the order of men and women is an hierarchical order, or simply order?

  28. Since I likely won’t be on the blog until Sunday or late Saturday……I think this is my take-away:  
    Jill’s statement:  ‘Oh my.  My brain hurts!’  and Dee’s humor in saying,  “I must have been a little crazy to post this when I have 22 people at my house!’   AND the multiple times that several here have shown and said out right how blessed we are to have a fellowship here that can discuss such a loaded topic in love and respect.    I was so behind the scenes this week……but couldn’t help but be drawn in, every time I had a moment to check the blog.  I have no conclusions……but a great take away!   And HAPPY BIRTHDAY, DEE!!!  May you love every moment with your whole family there to celebrate. You amaze me!

  29. I had to laugh at some of the comments about coffee and phones 🙂 My daughter is helping to start a church and they put things on instagram and twitter during the service all the time, and the entry way is a coffee bar 🙂 They have grown from 40 to 230 in 6 months, most people who gave up on church years ago because they just could not fit into the “traditional church” kind of mold. and almost all of them use an app for a Bible. I think we need to be VERY careful about judging a book by the cover so to speak. the lead teachers wife often teaches. They have seen many people healed of longtime hurts and many come to Christ. 
    there is a very big difference between BIG Truth (Jesus is the son of God and our only salvation) and little Truth (what makes us comfortable or what we were brought up with)…..it is dangerous to confuse the 2.

    1. Cyndi, Great points — and not just because I sometimes use a Bible app 🙂      I have tuned in to services, even to a funeral online, in which people occasionally are posting comments or questions during the sermon.  I can ignore the comments if I want, but they often keep more engaged than watching a talking head.

  30. Just wanted to clarify as I have been pondering today. 
     
    I made reference to “pride in women.” I do not mean to imply that women that are in leadership are prideful. I am sensitive to women being prideful and usurping authority because of the community I am in, I see women being so mean to their husbands  and others in authority and it grieves me and convicts me to be kind in my marriage, regardoes of the ultimate interpretation of these scriptures. I know that each woman is an individual and I was not making blanket statements. Nor do I assume that I can judge their hearts!

  31. I understood what you meant Jill!I want to wish you a very, very wonderful birthday tomarrow Dee.  I know you will be up bright and early spending precious time with the Lord and checking the blog.  I’m so happy all your family is together for your special day!!   That is the most wonderful gift any of us mothers could ever dream of!!   Enjoy them all and we will be expecting pictures on facebook!!!  HAVE A  HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!    Love you!!!

  32. Happy Birthday, Dee, our faith-filled leader…:)  Enjoy a lovely day celebrating.

  33. 9. Comments and notes
     
    Wow-How great to wake up this morning and listen to this..THIS IS SO WORTH LISTENING TO! I am going to have Patrick listen.

    I will post what stuck out with each person on the panel.

    John Piper: Complimentarianism is not competency based it doesn’t mean that one is more competent than the other. Something is stamped on a woman’s heart and something is stamped on a man’s heart and the way they dance together is defined in a certain way.
     
    Tim Keller: Equal in dignity and value-different in function. Egalitarianism assumes inferiority. They try to make it a competency thing. You can’t believe there is any differentiation in role unless you believe there is a differentiation in competence. So they believe there isn’t a difference in roles.
     
    Kathy Keller: Jesus was equal with the father but he put that aside and took on the role of a servant. Looking into Jesus submission into the father and the trinity. Submission is something you give. 
     
    Kathleen: The subordination of the son to the father-it revolutionizes the coming together-how they come together and how we live it out. It is the bigger story of the universe and we reflect him in the way he made us and the way we live. The head of every man is Christ and the head of the wife is her husband and the head of Christ is God-there is an order. 
     
    Piper: Paul praised singleness to the highest of heaven..if Paul felt he would be less human or less in the image of God he wouldn’t have praised singleness to the highest of heaven as he did. There are unique blessings to being married, character development and shaping. unique benefits from character and influence from being single. God gets glory from a single person he can’t get from a married person who lives his or her life of 40-60 years of joyfully submitted and faithfulness to God that he doesn’t have a person to go to instead he or she goes to God. The single and married dimension are facets of a God glorifying diamond. 
     
    Kathy Keller: Since we are both the bride of Christ-men and women..we can play out how that works out but single people have less of a distraction with a spouse in depending on Christ for their spousal love. They can show us what it means to trust Jesus for the love they need and not go looking to a human being for the love they need. 
     
    Kathy Keller: Saved through child bearing mean? Paul is going back to Genesis-women and men’s roles..Promise to Eve, you screwed up but through you the savior is going to come and save the whole world. You aren’t saved through having children but that eve that by having a child who had a child who had a child that eventually will be the messiah. 
    I totally disagree with Kathleen on this verse in regard to having babies:  She said it is distinct in womanhood-if you embrace that it is part of your living out your faith and salvation. I can’t help but think of women who are unable to conceive. 
     
    Tim Keller: James Hurley: Women should be silent when the prophets are being judged because that is what ordained people (men) do determining the doctrine in the church. It isn’t saying every time there is a gathering they can’t pray or say anything. 

    1. Correction for anyone who read this: I agree with Kathy Keller on what being saved through child bearing means, but disagree with Kathleen Nielson on it-yet after listening again I have a hard time believing she wouldn’t think about women who are unable to conceive or single women so maybe her intent was different than what I thought. I so admire her anyway..I haven’t heard much about her before this but I really like her.

  34. HAPPY BIRTHDAY OUR DEAR DEE!!! You are such an indescribable GIFT to each of us and so many more! “I thank my God in all my remembrance of you” (Phil 1:3)
    Praying it’s a day filled with love and joy!

  35. Happy Birthday, Dee!

  36. Happy birthday Dee! So happy for you to have your children celebrate with you! 

  37. Listened to the panel. Since Rebecca has already given us a great summary, I’ll just list a few points.
    Tim Keller: Gender roles is not core to the gospel, but moving away from what seems to be the clear teaching of scripture is not indifferent.
    Kathy Keller: Found the arguments for ordination of women disappointing – Paul didn’t write that, that was a later interpolation, an attitude of “I’ve made up my mind; don’t confuse me with the facts”.
    Don Carson: One of the things that defines how you interpret scripture.
     
    Is there a tendency to dismiss the views of those who disagree as not taking scripture seriously? I think it is possible to interpret scripture differently, while still viewing Biblical authority highly.
    Both complementarians and egalitarians show a tendency to caricature the other’s views. In this discussion, the egalitarian position was portrayed as ‘men and women are the same… no gender distinctions’. I don’t think that’s fair. Similarly, I don’t think it’s fair when egalitarians set up the patriarchal straw man. There is a clear difference between domination and servant leadership.

    1. Kerryn,  You asked, “Is there a tendency to dismiss the views of those who disagree as not taking scripture seriously?”   YES, that’s exactly what has pushed me into digging deeper.  The challenge is that every time I get a quarter of an inch deep (or should I be talking centimeters? 😉  ), my job calls me back… NEED TO DIG when brain isn’t on overload.  The example you used is one that bothered me because when I snooped, I found that many/most egalitarians believed in complementary roles, making even the labels confusing.  So, every time I hear people imply “I am right because the bad guys say that men and women are the same and they are not,” I get bored and start to tune out.  Where I want to dig is the concept of order.  When I am able to focus better, I might make a chart to indicate what verses refer to men being first, what verses discuss mutual or reciprocal, and what verses talk about women first.  I did (superficially) listen to Philip Payne talking about Biblical arguments for egalitarianism (would probably be good to listen more carefully), but I want to dig deeper for myself.  

  38. Reading Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood to see if I can work out the key differences in interpretation… In these notes I’m just focusing on the points where complementarians and egalitarians differ.
    Ch 3. Male-Female Equality and Male Headship – Genesis 1-3 (Raymond C Ortlund Jr)
    Genesis 1:26-28 establishes male-female equality, as both bear imago dei.
    Interpretation of Genesis 2:18 distinguishes comp & egal positions. Comp – creation of woman as man’s ‘helper’ establishes male headship & female submission. This is before the fall, and therefore shows God’s plan for gender roles. Egal – the Hebrew ezer ‘helper’ does not imply subordination. God is referred to as man’s ezer. Males ruling over females was a result of the fall, not God’s plan.
     
    (Looking at other occurences in the Old Testament, I’m not convinced that ezer implies authority. Leaning to the egal argument there.)
     
    Ch 4. Women in the Life and Teachings of Jesus(James A Borland)
     
    Comp – Jesus valued women highly in his ministry, but demonstrated a clear role distinction by selecting 12 men as apostles. Not dictated by social or cultural pressure – Jesus overthrew other norms. Egal – Jesus selected 12 Jewish men as apostles, but this doesn’t mean that all church leaders must be Jewish men.
     
    (Strong comp argument for me)… that’s it for tonight!

    1. I like your digging 😉

  39. Just one or two other points – a caution:  I have been in ministry directly for 41 years.  I have seen so many people get caught up in trying to “understand” a perspective so they can be a better Christian. When they cannot, they fall away from Christ.   They think they are a failure.  Remember, it is the job of the Holy Spirit to “open minds” and “show us our weaknesses.”  Do not think of yourself as a lessor believer, if you cannot reconcile this issue at this time.  When you are ready, and the Holy Spirit will know the timing, He will direct you.  Likewise, to those of us who think we fully grasp the concept, remember, the Holy Spirit will continue to lead us into greater and deeper understanding as well.   The key – keep being open to Christ for growth in the faith.
    I just had my pre-op tests done yesterday and am awaiting surgery on Wednesday, August 27.  I will keep you posted on my recovery.  If it is face-down, I am already thinking of a sermon and/or Bible study called, Being prostrate before the Lord.  I am sure I will learn many things from this unnatural recovery position, the most critical is being obedient so I can see.  Um!! Think God might have this same principle?  Love you all.  You are all an inspiration to me.

    1. Sherryl…….good post.   Will be praying for your surgery and recovery……when it’s possible, let us know how you are doing.  Rest in Him…..dear sister.

    2. Sherryl…I’ve been praying for you…as you prepare for your surgery wednesday….hadn’t forgotten you girl!   Praying that all goes very well and your eyesight will be better than ever!   Praying for you  wed. Sherryl.

  40. HAPPY BIRTHDAY DEE!
     
    =)
     
    Prayer request: Please pray for my family as we transition from Georgia to Virginia in the next 3 weeks. Thank you! (I do not get on Facebook anymore, really, but I do see your requests come through my emails and I pray for each of you!)

    1. oooh, PRAYING, Jill!  Where in VA?  Anywhere near DC ? (will be in DC in Nov)

    2. Jill….thank you so much for your prayers for us.   I will be keeping you in my prayers for the next few weeks….praying the move goes very smooth and  as planned. Peace to you, Jill.

  41. HAPPY BIRTHDAY, DEE! 
     
    I hope you had a wonderful day with your family…full of fun, laughter, and celebration. Thank you for being “here” for us, faithfully, week after week to lead us closer to Him! Love you, Dee!

  42. A bunch of Gospel Coalition podcasts in one place on iTunes:  https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-gospel-coalition/id270128470?mt=2
    I don’t think I’ve found the “right” one by Paige Benton Brown yet.  From what I can tell, women don’t show up in this list until 2011 ??

  43. Another question I haven’t yet answered regarding the complementarian position… if male headship is grounded in creation, why does it only apply within the family and the church? Why is it OK for women to have authority over men at work and in the community but not in the home or the church? Why is it OK for women to teach men in Bible studies, in schools, in seminaries, but not in churches. At the moment, it looks inconsistent to me.

  44. My takeaway is that I am SO impressed with how Jesus is present in and through us in this discussion and the enemy didn’t get a foothold! For me it has planted some new thoughts of His in my heart in regard to my marriage both in confirming how we operate in our roles and in encouraging us in our blind spots.  We are submissive to Jesus as our core-our head- and then to one another but with different roles. I can easily get in my flesh and either be a door mat or be in control. My husband is the same way. There have been times I have waited and prayed for God to change my husband’s heart, or mine, on an issue instead of me changing us..and there have been times I jumped in, not respecting my husband to lead our boys in discussing something and my husband lets me know I totally took over.  When I trust God He is so sweet-either He changes my heart, or my husbands..I love it when I see my husbands heart soften and do a 180 toward something he was originally hard to.. I LOVE that because I know it is the Holy Spirit working in his heart-God our husband moving in us-leading us.  I have noticed when I take over instead of trusting Him our hearts and the conversations end up being a mess! 🙂 
     

    1. Rebecca….I’ve found this to be true  also!……”  I have noticed when I take over instead of trusting Him our hearts and the conversations end up being a mess! :)” Great take away!!