HIS VOICE THUNDERS OVER THE WATERS
HIS VOICE BREAKS THE CEDARS
HE IS LORD OF EVERY STORM
SO HE IS LORD OF YOUR STORM
Watch this to prepare your heart for the week and for this powerful psalm:
This week we see the power of the Lord, the power of poetry, the power of accompanying music — and most of all, from the psalm, the confident assurance that God is in control. There is no storm over which He is not Lord, no sorrow that heaven cannot heal.
Storms, like the flood in Noah’s Day, show both His fury, but also His mercy. I have not seen the Noah movie (but I will when it comes out on DVD) and I know they added to and changed the story — but believers I respect were able to filter that out and “mine the gold from the Egyptians.” I mined some gold in this preview — see if you can as well:
Sunday:
1. What stands out to you from the above and why?
2. Were you able to “mine any gold” from the clip from “Noah?”
Monday – Wednesday: Bible Study
Prepare your heart with this:
3. Read aloud Psalm 29 with all your heart and all your mind. What stands out to you? Why?
4. Compare Psalm 29:1-2 with Isaiah 6:1-5. What similarities do you see?
5. Read Psalm 29:3-9 and describe the power God has over creation. Share a time when you witnessed this and it caused you to tremble or be in awe.
6. Isaiah describes a day that is coming in Isaiah 2:12-21. What will happen and what is the purpose of this storm?
7. What similarities do you see in the above with Psalm 29?
8. Psalm 29:10 moves into the storm that becomes a flood. Read Genesis 6:5-8. What was the purpose of that storm and how did it show both God’s wrath and His mercy?
Prepare your heart with this song:
9. Find ways God showed mercy to Noah and his family in:
A. Genesis 6:17-18
B. Genesis 7:16
C. Genesis 8:1
D. Genesis 9:1-3 (How does this echo God’s command to Adam and what does this imply?)
E. Genesis 9:13-17.
10. Challenge question: Do you believe that God is in control of every storm — or not? If not, what does that mean theologically? If so, can you support this scripturally?
11. Optional: The following is a documentary from a man on the street questioning people about Noah — I found it illuminating — but this is optional, if you have a half hour of relaxed time to watch. Watch and comment. Might be interesting to watch with teens too.
Thursday-Friday Sermon
Keller has a free sermon on Noah that is terrific: LINK
12. Share your notes and comments on one of the above
Saturday:
13. What is your take-a-way and why?
263 comments
Isaiah describes a day that is coming in Isaiah 2:12-21. What will happen and what is the purpose of this storm?
Everyone will see God’s glory clearly. There will be no mistaking it. The earth will be shaken so severely that everyone will recognize that everything they have relied upon for security is worthless. Idols of silver and gold – worthless. No towers or walls will offer protection. “Every knee in heaven and on earth and under the earth will bow to worship him.” (Philippians 2:10)
Just heard that a 74 year old man was driving on a county rode at the time of the Pilger tornado monday night and it completely sucked him out of the pickup and he was found miles away..dead.
Also a 5 year old little girl…named Calista died..due to tornado debree in their home:(
God’s hand is very strong and very painful at times like this. I didn’t even know them..but I weep for their families:(
So heartbreaking, Joyce. I grew up in a town of 300 people, so when I heard that was about the size of Pilger, I felt a grip on my heart. I can’t imagine my home town being destroyed in seconds. Such profound sorrow with the deaths of these two precious lives. Isn’t it amazing how Dee’s study about storms coincides with this great tragedy in your vicinity….Will keep praying.
8. What was the purpose of that storm and how did it sow both God’s wrath and is mercy?
The Lord saw the evil and wickedness of the human race He created and it “broke His heart”…the Lord destroyed all that He had created with the flood (wrath) with the exception of Noah, who found favor with God (mercy).
9. Find ways God showed mercy to Noah and his family in:
A. Genesis 6:17-18 – He gave them salvation from the flood. He also made a covent with them.
B. Genesis 7:16 – God shut the door. His hand ensured safety and protection.
C. Genesis 8:1 – God remembered Noah. God sent a second “salvation” – receding the water to end the trial and begin again.
D. Genesis 9:1-3 (How does this echo God’s command to Adam and what does this imply?) – this is pretty much the exact same blessing that was given to Adam and Eve. The one difference is that God told Noah that all creatures would be afraid of him, to Adam God said he would rule over the things of the world but not that they would be afraid of him.
What does this imply? Maybe that God still wanted to bless mankind? Maybe He was just ‘starting over’? His will was still the same? The He intended for mankind to enjoy and do well with His creation?
E. Genesis 9:13-17 – He gave a visible sign of His covenant. He promised to never destroy all living things again. He gave the promise in correlation with storms, so at the moment that we may become fearful of His wrath He reminds us of His promise…which fits so very well with many of the Psalms we have studied.
Jill-I liked your answer to 9B. I read it but missed it- the significance in God shutting the door!
9. Find ways God showed mercy to Noah and his family in:
A. Genesis 6:17-18
He planned to destroy mankind and every living breathing thing yet saved Noah and his family. The contrast is stark..Destruction of man/Covenant with Noah and his family..So it wasn’t just that he saved Noah from the flood-He wanted a new beginning for mankind and His relationship with us through Noah.
B. Genesis 7:16
God provided animals for Noah and his family on the ark.
C. Genesis 8:1
God remembered Noah and all the animals and made the waters subside.
D. Genesis 9:1-3 (How does this echo God’s command to Adam and what does this imply?)
God said the exact same thing in Genesis 1: “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth”. and God gave everything on earth to them to rule over. This implies that it is a new beginning.
E. Genesis 9:13-17.
God established a covenant with Noah and with all flesh on the earth by setting a Rainbow after it rains to show he will never destroy the earth by flood again.
Jill — I seem to remember a song about God shutting the door — but can’t recall it. I do love that.
Dee, this is a cool song about “shuttin de do” I have always liked. I heard it sung once by an African group and was very blessed. Here is a choir that does a pretty good job with it 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vG91awpZ8H0&sns
Shut the door, keep out the devil
Shut the door, keep the devil in the night
Shut the door, keep out the devil
Light the candle everything’s alright
Light the candle everything’s alright
When I was a baby child (shut the door, keep out the devil)
Good and bad was just a game (shut the door, keep the devil in the night)
Many years and many trials (shut the door, keep out the devil)
They proved to me they not the same (shut the door, keep the devil in the night)
chorus
Oh, satan is an evil charmer (shut the door, keep out the devil)
He’s hungry for a soul to hurt (shut the door, keep the devil in the night)
And without your holy armor (shut the door, keep out the devil)
He will eat you for dessert (shut the door, keep the devil in the night)
chorus
My mama used to sing this song (shut the door, keep out the devil)
Poppa used to sing it, too (shut the door, keep the devil in the night)
Jesus called and took them home (shut the door, keep out the devil)
And so I sing the song for you (shut the door, keep the devil in the night)
Wonderful, Laura-dancer — thanks for sharing!
LOVE this, Laura! Had forgotten it. Sweet last stanza….
10. Challenge question: Do you believe that God is in control of every storm — or not? If not, what does that mean theologically? If so, can you support this scripturally?
I do believe that God is control of every storm.
If He is not in control then that would mean is He not omnipotent. It puts a limit on His ability and power and compassion.
Supporting this scripturally….there are so many verses that declare His omnipotence, that tell of His mighty works. He also shows Himself in stories – how He is always there, how the storm had purpose, meaning. The Bible says He is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb 13:8) so if He was always in the story then that means He is in my story now.
I think some view storms out of His control because they argue if He is good He wouldn’t allow bad things to happen, so then He must be unable. What we realize is storms are good. Even if they seem bad they pull us to Him.
He lets us participate in storms through prayer. Sometimes this is merely to focus our hearts, victory in our heart (or others) of attitude and idols. I do not understand how sometimes our prayers result in changed circumstances and sometimes they don’t. But I know it is good to pray for good even just by the example of Christ praying for the cup to pass. I do not understand the complex dynamic of how it all works or why.
I suppose I think of His control on storms as a boundary…. Sometimes this boundary is fairly wide (like in Job) and sometimes the boundary is so tight that it dictates specific actions and events. I do not know if this is accurate but its how I have reconciled the complexity to fit into my simple mind.
I found this illuminating on suffering (same as storms?) from Keller’s book Walking with God Through Pain and Suffering.
http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/20-quotes-from-walking-with-god-through-pain-and-suffering
Jill, your thoughts on participating in storms through prayer are really good. “Sometimes this is merely to focus our hearts, victory in our heart (or others) of attitude and idols…But I know it is good to pray for good even just by the example of Christ praying for the cup to pass.”
Thanks, Susan. I struggle with understanding our role in storms but I hang on to knowing it is good to pray.
This phrase, Jill, is so meaningful. Yes, we do participate in storms through prayer. And God draws us to himself. I know how true this is in my life. I am trusting him through it all. Sorry I can not participate more at this time. I am in an emotional storm. But God is in control and I am thankful. The weather storms are so dramatic and life threatening. And the examples this week are truly drawing our attention to this Psalm 29.
Jill-Went to your link of the quotes from Keller’s book and this melted my heart:
“It fits to glorify God — it not only fits reality, because God is infinitely and supremely praiseworthy, but it fits us as nothing else does. All the beauty we have looked for in art or faces or places — and all the love we have looked for in the arms of other people — is only fully present in God himself. And so in every action by which we treat him as glorious as he is, whether through prayer, singing, trusting, obeying, or hoping, weare at once giving God his due and fulfilling our own design.”
They were all so good! Was going to post 1 or 2 here but would have ended up taking so much room! So I just posted the link. =)
Did you have a good birthday?
yes I did! I had to force myself to relax and do nothing-it was hard but today I am going to ‘get things done’. 🙂
Jill…thank you for sharing Keller quotes from his book…Walking with God through pain and suffering! Oh my..those really touch my heart…so good! I have to get that book!. Thanks again.
I’ve written my own answer to this question, and was just reading through some others. I struggle with the purpose in suffering part.
For example, from Keller, Some suffering is given in order to chastise and correct a person for wrongful patterns of life (as in the case of Jonah imperiled by the storm), some suffering is given not to correct past wrongs but to prevent future ones (as in the case of Joseph sold into slavery), and some suffering has no purpose other than to lead a person to love God more ardently for himself alone and so discover the ultimate peace and freedom.
What does that mean for me? I relate it to my greatest suffering – my husband’s death. What is the purpose of his death? I don’t believe it was to punish either him or me. To prevent a future wrong? Unlikely. To lead me to love God more? Well it has caused me to rely on God more, but I don’t see that as the reason John died. Rather, God has used what is hurtful in my life and transformed it, using it for good. “In all things God works for the good of those who love him” (Romans 8:28). I don’t read that verse saying that God causes all things, but that he works in all things.
I have trouble with explanations that say that John died in order that I would come closer to God. But I’m willing to be corrected.
Kerryn, When I read your post i was so encouraged by your honesty and think you are on the right track. Wish I could give you a hug. I hope if you have time that you could read Elizabeth’s answer to #10 below-it really speaks to your questions.
Kerryn, , I appreciate your posting about your struggles with “the purpose in suffering part”, and I am touched because you have suffered through the loss of your husband. I am wondering myself, can we always say that suffering has a purpose? As you worked it out here…your husband’s death doesn’t “fit” into any of the three purposes that Keller states. I wonder…can we sometimes just say that suffering happens because it’s just a part of life? Death wasn’t part of God’s original plan, but it came because of the Fall. We live in a world where disease, accidents, natural disasters, and death happen every day. In trying to assign a purpose to all this suffering, are we just trying to help ourselves cope with it by wanting an explanation? So your last sentence, “I have trouble with explanations that say that John died in order that I would come closer to God”…maybe there are things that happen that there is no “in order that…”?
I would love to have some discussion on Susan’s question. This is probably where the Reformed and Arminian perspectives would part, but it is always good to think about what matters.
What would you think about the reference Elizabeth posted:
Isaiah 45:6-7 “I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.”
I think we often cannot know the why, but if God is in control and allows it, would He not have a purpose we cannot now see? Was that not the case with Job, with Noah, and with Christ?
3. Read aloud Psalm 29 with all your heart and all your mind. What stands out to you? Why?
Reading this Psalm makes me think of the account of creation, where God spoke things into being. In the NASB, verse 10 is translated, “The Lord sat as King at the flood”. Even on that day, God was Sovereign. I note a contrast in verses 5 and 6, “The voice of the Lord breaks the cedars…And He makes Lebanon skip like a calf, and Sirion (Mount Hermon) like a young wild ox.” I noted a contrast this morning…we were having a pretty heavy thunderstorm with big booms of thunder sounding right over our house, and a lot of lightning. Yet, between claps of thunder, I could hear a bird singing its early morning song as the storm was going on.
4. Compare Psalm 29:1-2 with Isaiah 6:1-5. What similarities do you see?
Psalm 29:1-2 says that we are to “ascribe to the Lord glory and strength; the glory due to His name”. And we are to worship Him in the majesty of His holiness. I looked up the word “ascribe”, and it is to lay something to the account of a person. This tells me that when I think about God, I need to be thinking rightly about Him. He is a God of glory and strength, majesty and holiness. Isaiah got a vision of God sitting on His throne, with the seraphim crying out “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord…the whole earth is full of His glory.” They were ascribing glory to God.
5. Read Psalm 29:3-9 and describe the power God has over creation. Share a time when you witnessed this and it caused you to tremble or be in awe.
I feel awe and wonder when I look at the things He has made. At the zoo, when we see the huge tortoises, they have these neat geometric patterns on their shells. The color of the red cardinal and his black “mask”. The way the snow glitters like diamonds in the sunlight. I’ve seen pictures of spiders, magnified, that show they have these cute little faces and hair (makes them seem not so scary!). The moon…how it can be small and bright white, or the huge yellow-orange harvest moon. I could go on and on….
6. Isaiah describes a day that is coming in Isaiah 2:12-21. What will happen and what is the purpose of this storm?
Isaiah describes a “day of reckoning” against everyone who is proud and lofty. On that day, the “pride of man will be humbled…and the Lord alone will be exalted in that day.” It talks also about idols, so this may be the Lord’s wrath against the idolatry of His people. Verse 18 says “But the idols will completely vanish”, and verse 20, “In that day men will cast away to the moles and the bats their idols of silver and their idols of gold, which they made for themselves to worship.” Pride and idolatry go together – we decide we won’t worship the Lord and give Him the glory; instead we worship our idols and make them our gods that save us.
7. What similarities do you see in the above with Psalm 29?
The theme of breaking the cedars of Lebanon is mentioned in both passages. The Isaiah passage makes it clear that there is no high place – no hill or mountain or tower that God is not still higher…Psalm 29 says that the voice of God breaks the cedars and shakes the wilderness; He can strip a forest bare. Both contain themes of God asserting His sovereign power over all of the earth. The earth is His to do with as He wills. In the end, only God will be exalted.
8. Psalm 29:10 moves into the storm that becomes a flood. Read Genesis 6:5-8. What was the purpose of that storm and how did it show both God’s wrath and His mercy?
The purpose of the storm in Genesis was to destroy man and every living thing on the earth, because man was wicked and God was sorry He had made man. It showed God’s wrath against wickedness and evil. But Noah, having found favor in the sight of God, was shown mercy. He and his family survived.
Susan, “we were having a pretty heavy thunderstorm with big booms of thunder sounding right over our house, and a lot of lightning. Yet, between claps of thunder, I could hear a bird singing its early morning song as the storm was going on.” – Such a sweet picture to me of trusting God in the storm.
Susan.….I also loved the anecdote you shared about the little bird singing between claps of thunder. I think many of us can relate to those loud thunder storms this week! I enjoyed the descriptions of the power of creation and how they moved you too. AND I like that you mentioned the idols and the day of reckoning in the Isaiah passage. I found that very fascinating that Isaiah says..”the idols will totally disappear” and that ‘In that day men will throw away to the rodents and bats, their idols of silver and idols of gold’. Wow! What a description of the worthlessness and powerlessness of idols.
I love that I get summers off of work-I get to spend more time with Him here with you all and in his word! :))) I need to behave though and at some point get some things done around here. ;~)
10. Challenge question: Do you believe that God is in control of every storm — or not? If not, what does that mean theologically? If so, can you support this scripturally?
I have always believed intellectually that he is in control of every storm including the evil ones-but HONESTLY it hadn’t fallen from my head into my affections for him yet until this week. If I said he wasn’t in control of evil then I would be saying that He is impotent and weak in certain instances-then I would have to question the Gospel-the Cross-the resurrection!
Psalm 103:19 says “The Lord has established his throne in the heavens and his sovereignty rules over all.” Why would his sovereignty rule over only the good and not the bad too-He rules over ‘all‘. If God didn’t rule over evil then that would mean that evil is greater than God and that isn’t true because God determined satan’s destiny on the Cross-he crushed his head!
Finally, Job’s life is a perfect example-God gave satan permission to strip Job of everything but satan couldn’t go beyond the boundaries God set. God even allowed satan to bring Job to near death but not to kill him-yet God allowed satan to kill Job’s family. So God rules over evil and satan too. God only gives satan enough rope to hang himself for Job glorified God in it all and God restored Job.
So I have to bring this around to the evil and injustice I am seeing in Iraq right now-all the mass killing..it is so so sad and has been heavy on my heart! And the thousands of precious immigrant children pouring over our border-being used for political gain in our country- and from what I have heard some of the children are being kidnapped and trafficked from Mexico into the sex slave industry. Can you imagine how scary and painful that is for a child?! Thinking they are coming here for freedom and provision and instead being sold into sex slavery? Can you imagine how that angers God! God will bring justice and He is God of this storm too.
Oh Rebecca…I know…that breaks my heart about Iraq and all the immigrant children…especially ones being sold into slavory? Oh Lord..please help these innocent children!
love this reminder Rebecca! “God only gives satan enough rope to hang himself for Job glorified God in it all and God restored Job.”
11. Optional: The following is a documentary from a man on the street questioning people about Noah — I found it illuminating — but this is optional, if you have a half hour of relaxed time to watch. Watch and comment. Might be interesting to watch with teens too.
I watched this twice, once with my oldest son. I thought it was illuminating also-so much I see in the people interviewed that we see of the people back in Noah’s days. The people now a days aren’t different in how they knowingly reject God and chose to not just worship their idols but trust in them completely-they are given over to them and want nothing of God. It seems like our culture and the whole world really have rejected God-except us of course-we are Noahs in our day and age.
I liked the questions he asked the gal with the glasses. He was really good at getting her to see the lies she believes by asking her questions about how she feels about justice-then that opened the door to reason with her about why there has to be hell because God is just..I don’t see how she walked away from that not reconsidering her atheist position. I also loved how he reasoned through the Gospel with those two boys-the one saying, ‘What you just said clicked!”.
I really loved how he reasoned with people where they were at-reminded me a bit of Paul. Yet, and this is subjective on my part, that even though he told them that God loved them so much He took on their punishment on the cross. I wondered if it was a bit heavy on redemption from the penalty of sin and where we will go when we die instead of focusing on the other true fact that He died to save us from the power of sin-so that we can have intimacy with Him-to walk and talk with Him -that God loves and wants us so much He came so that we could be restored in relationship with Him. But God is in control of that too. I am learning He is lord over all and that obviously includes when we share the Gospel with others. He sears it in their hearts not us, and he fills in the places in his timing that we may miss-and I fully believe in his sovereignty perhaps those missed places were supposed to be missed. I know I am not as well spoken and able to reason with non believers as well as Ray Comfort did!
eww..I just re-read my observation of the Ray Comfort video..and I don’t like how i expressed what I was thinking. I hope it didn’t sound as if I think ‘we’ are superior over those who don’t know Him. The truth is that we aren’t..His covering over us is what makes us righteous-nothing we have done so we are no better than those who don’t know him and we too struggle with idolatry-I think I might have dug a hole here-will step out now.. :))
Oh and another thing I noticed was when Ray Comfort told them they could be forgiven and when God sees them he sees them as not marred by sin but beautiful, clothed in His righteousness. I saw the longing in some of their eyes- the hopelessness inside and the desire to be seen as beautiful-to be truly loved like that. It brought a sadness inside me for them and a desire that they would desire Him.
9. Find ways God showed mercy to Noah and his family in:
A. Genesis 6:17-18 He gave them plan, He didn’t leave them in the dark. He established a covenant and saved their lives.
B. Genesis 7:16 Noah obeyed and God helped him accomplish something that seems impossible to most.
C. Genesis 8:1 He calmed the storm and kept them safe.
D. Genesis 9:1-3 (How does this echo God’s command to Adam and what does this imply?) He told them both not to eat a certain thing. It shows me the importance of self-control. He also gave them both so many gifts. Shows me He is a loving Father.
E. Genesis 9:13-17. He gave us a promise and rainbow to remember the promise.
Do you believe that God is in control of every storm — or not? If not, what does that mean theologically? If so, can you support this scripturally?
Yes I believe that He is in control of everything, but that doesn’t mean bad things wont happen to us. We live in a fallen world because of our sin. Evil does not come from Him, but from the enemy. We made the choice to sin, He didn’t. If it were up to Him we would be living in a perfect world, and will one day (because He is in control). I think of it as there are two boats that God made. One will sink, one will not sink. He is in control of both boats. We have the choice which boat we want to get on. Since He is in control of both boats, He has the power to do whatever He wants with them. Sink them both, Keep the both afloat. And, just because one boat might sink, it does not mean He is a mean God. He can do whatever He wants because He is God and in control.
Scripture: Isaiah 14:24
The Lord of hosts has sworn: “As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand,
Natalie–love this answer–simple but profound! I’m sharing it with my kids–they’ll like the 2 boats!
10. Challenge question: Do you believe that God is in control of every storm — or not? If not, what does that mean theologically? If so, can you support this scripturally?
Yes, I do believe God is in control of every storm—I’d be terrified if I believed otherwise. Scripture tells us over and over that God has power over animals, nature, over man, over Satan.
Mark 4:41 “And they were filled with great fear and said to one another, ‘Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?’”
Psalm 135:7 “He it is who makes the clouds rise at the end of the earth, who makes lightnings for the rain and brings forth the wind from his storehouses.”
Mark 1:27 “He commands even the unclean spirits, and they obey Him.”
Isaiah 45:6-7 “I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.”
Daniel 4:35 “and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”
Romans 8:28 “And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for ithose who are called according to his purpose.”
John 19:11 “Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.”
I don’t pretend to understand when terror strikes, but I have to trust that it is not outside of His power. When I think about His power, the reason it brings me such peace is that, as we see in this Psalm, it is perfectly balanced with love. I also love that He never wastes our sorrows. He takes us into the wilderness and draws us nearer to Him—He will use the pain to bless us with deeper intimacy. As Keller often says, storms will either makes us more bitter, or, if we allow Him, make us more like Jesus.
I watched a clip of RC Sproul, Jr., who lost his wife to cancer and his special needs daughter within a year. He answered common questions on God and suffering. He said, “when people ask ‘why do bad things happen to good people?’ my short answer is, there was only One who was good, and He volunteered”. I have known suffering, and I know many here have suffered more than I can imagine, and if you know me, you know I’m not a candy-coater, so I don’t at all mean to sound trite. I have suffered trials I would have never chosen, but I would choose them now–for the intimacy He gave me through them. We know our suffering is not punishment, Jesus took care of all that. And our suffering is not that God just doesn’t care, the Cross proves otherwise beyond all doubt. It comforts me to know God sees, He’s awake, and He’s not caught off guard by trauma. He is all power, perfectly balanced with all love. Love defines Him. So I trust Him, and I thank Him for holding all the power—and combining it with great merciful love.
Oh Elizabeth…you are neither candy coated or trite. I so agree with your thoughts on suffering……He takes us into the wilderness and draws us nearer to him….he will use the pain to bless us with deeper intimacy.
I love that!
Elizabeth-Your answer to #10 is SO good. I hope others read this!
Oh, Elizabeth, Your last paragraph about suffering is wonderful — I have never heard it said better!
Thanks Elizabeth! Love your answer and his quote, “when people ask ‘why do bad things happen to good people?’ my short answer is, there was only One who was good, and He volunteered”. Amen!
Ditto to Natalie’s comment…love, “there was only One who was good, and He volunteered”…thank You, Jesus!
Amazing post — Scripture references and quote from Sproul. Thank you, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth, LOVE this “He never wastes our sorrows” and “He’s not caught off guard by trauma.”
This is a powerful paragraph, Elizabeth. I wish the Christians who said such insensitive things to us as 28 year old parents who just learned our daughter had an incurable illness would have had this kind of wisdom. My husband and I have spent these last nearly 3 decades trying to process and share what we know of God because of our experience….because we were really taken aback by the harmful comments of others. The book ‘When You Can’t Come Back’ by Dave and Jan Dravecky was excellent in this regard as well.
Wanda, I am so sorry for the pain caused by others’ hurtful comments. I know after my Dad died, I mentally started a file of “what not to say to someone hurting”. As I experienced years of infertility the file became a book, one I honestly thought about writing–with a few added chapters of what not to say to adoptive parents! But I think unless you have known suffering, ignorance can cause people to say terribly insensitive things. Wanda, you have SUCH a big heart–genuine, other-centered–your compassion is so obvious to me, even knowing you only online. That is no doubt the fruit of your deep suffering. I hope my pain has made me more tender, sensitive to others. Mostly, I’ve learned, especially from Dee, that often the best and only valid thing to say is “I’m sorry” or simply nothing. Just sit shiva.
Thank you, Elizabeth, for the scripture references. These are helpful. A beautiful answer to #10.
Elizabeth, you did a really good job thinking this through and supporting with Scripture, but your last paragraph is the best, because it reflects your character and your own relationship with the Lord…it is one of trust. You trust Him, you trust in His love.
🙁 Just wrote a book, posted it in wrong place. Will attempt to edit or delete.
6. Isaiah describes a day that is coming in Isaiah 2:12-21. What will happen and what is the purpose of this storm?
I think I’m losing it! I have a strong feeling that I posted this answer once before, but I don’t find it anywhere. Must be in the twilight zone!
The Lord will be exalted, arrogant men humbled and brought low. People will be fearful and hide in caves. “In that day men will throw away to the rodents and bats their idols of silver and idols of gold, which they made to worship.”
Isaiah 2:12-21 is describing the “day of the Lord.” The purpose would be the day of judgment, the time when God will judge both evil and good.
7. What similarities do you see in the above with Psalm 29?
Both mention the cedars of Lebanon. In Psalm 29 “the voice of the Lord shakes the desert.” In Isaiah 2, we are told “he rises to shake the earth.” Oaks are mentioned in both passages. Both reference the proud and the lofty being humbled.
8. Psalm 29:10 moves into the storm that becomes a flood. Read Genesis 6:5-8. What was the purpose of that storm and how did it show both God’s wrath and His mercy?
The purpose of the storm/flood in Genesis was to eliminate the evil people from the earth. God had created the people and loved them, but they disappointed him so badly that it caused him pain. Only Noah found favor with the Lord. It sort of sounds like God was trying to start all over. God was so angry with the evil that he felt something had to be done. Yet God was merciful, in that Noah found favor with him, and Noah’s family was spared (along with enough anmals to re-populate the earth).
9. Find ways God showed mercy to Noah and his family in:
A. Genesis 6:17-18 He promised to establish a covenant with Noah’s family.
B. Genesis 7:16 God spared one complete pair of every living thing, so that Noah’s family would have them after the flood was over.
C. Genesis 8:1 God provided for the rain to stop and the wind to dry up the water, so that Noah and his family could disembark.
D. Genesis 9:1-3 (How does this echo God’s command to Adam and what does this imply?) It echoes it very closely — that they would be fruitful and multiply, and the animals would also,which would provide food for them, and God considered all of these animals and plants to be a gift for the humans.
E. Genesis 9:13-17. God made the “rainbow” covenant with Noah’s family, promising never to destroy the world again by flood.
3. Read aloud Psalm 29 with all your heart and all your mind. What stands out to you? Why? The awesome (majestic and able to strike fear) power of the Lord over his creation. We as a people have often disregarded and destroyed unwittingly or because of apathy, parts of his creation….but we do not reign over it. Only God does. When he speaks, it is powerful….sometimes it comforts and sometimes evokes terror but the ultimate truth is stated in the last verse…..’He blesses his people with peace’. Peace in the midst of the floods and the storms and the awesome power. His voice and power elicit reverential fear…..but his intimate and unconditional love for us gives us peace.
4. Compare Psalm 29:1-2 with Isaiah 6:1-5. What similarities do you see? Oh how I love Isaiah’s commission. His response when he sees the Lord seated on the throne high and exalted makes me so aware of how small and inconsequential I should feel in the light of his greatness, his holiness and his might. When he declares ‘woe is me….I am a man of unclean lips in the midst of a people of unclean lips’….this speaks to me of how we should come to him in reverence and humility…..and to me, it is a clear picture of confessing our unworthiness when we come to worship him. To me, this is the basis for the kind of worship service I am seeking…..one that acknowledges our complete frailty and our sin rather than beginning in celebration and jubilation. In the psalm, God’s holiness and worth is foremost. We ascribe to him the glory due his name. We acknowledge that he is worthy to be praised and worshiped.
AMEN to that Wanda!
5. Read Psalm 29:3-9 and describe the power God has over creation. As the psalmist poetically describes the effects of the Lord’s voice and power over creation, he ends with ..‘and in his temple all cry, “Glory!” That is a strong prologue to this section. He saw the Lord as great and powerful and saw his glory even in the things that seem frightening at the natural level.
6. Isaiah describes a day that is coming in Isaiah 2:12-21. What will happen and what is the purpose of this storm? Well, it’s a day of coming judgement when everyone will be stripped of their idols, stripped of their pride and laid low before the One who alone is powerful and worthy. Those who do not know him in reverential fear and trust in Him, the living God, alone for their salvation, will flee and try to hide because of the dread of the majestic Lord who is full of splendor. Their eyes and hearts cannot stand to look at Him as they have not acknowledged Him as Lord and have instead trusted in their idols and false gods. I don’t know which judgement this refers to. If it was a judgement for the people of Isaiah’s time or if it is of the coming judgement of Christ.
7. What similarities do you see in the above with Psalm 29? references to the cedars of Lebanon, and to how the Lord will shake the earth…shake the desert are in both passages. In the psalm, the response is that everyone worships Him and cries ‘Glory’ in the temple and that the Lord blesses His people with strength and peace. In Isaiah, the terrible day of the Lord is seen when men flee to the caves and the rocks and try desperately to escape the judgement. They have been clinging to idols and they realize it has been futile. They throw down their idols in a last ditch attempt to appease their judge but their idols have not been replaced with the living God and they are without hope. However, in verse 22, Isaiah tells them to ‘stop trusting in man who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?” He is giving them the chance to change their allegiance. My study note recognizes this as a counterpart to Isaiah 53:3 and says “Ironically, the one Man who should have been trusted and ‘esteemed’ (which equals here ‘Of what account’) was ‘rejected’ ‘given up on’ by men. He alone was worthy of the esteem wrongly given to frail leaders’…..or idols or other gods.
Psalm 29:10 moves into the storm that becomes a flood. Read Genesis 6:5-8. What was the purpose of that storm and how did it show both God’s wrath and His mercy?
The storm was God’s response to evil because it was so repugnant to him and grieved his heart. His wrath is shown in the destruction of all creatures on earth. His mercy is seen in that Noah found favour in his eyes, so the Lord provided a way through the storm.
Find ways God showed mercy to Noah and his family in:
A. Genesis 6:17-18 He made an agreement (covenant) with Noah.
B. Genesis 7:16 He planned a safe place for Noah, his family, and a pair of each animal during the flood that would destroy everything else.
C. Genesis 8:1 After the flood had destroyed everything, God ensured there was somewhere for Noah to live again.
D. Genesis 9:1-3 (How does this echo God’s command to Adam and what does this imply?) God instated Noah as the beginning of this fresh start. He is like a new Adam, given the same command as Adam was.
E. Genesis 9:13-17. God promised never to destroy the world by flood again.
Do you believe that God is in control of every storm — or not? If not, what does that mean theologically? If so, can you support this scripturally?
After my husband died, I struggled to understand what God’s sovereignty meant and what it did not. Shortly after, I attended the funeral of an elderly Christian man who had died after a long battle with cancer. In his message, the pastor stated that every Christian dies at the right time, at the time God decides. I struggled with this – not for this elderly gentleman who was prepared for his death, but with regard to John’s death. Did God decide that John would die suddenly, leaving teenage children who needed a father, leaving a wife who needed a husband?
I think now that we need to differentiate between control and causation. I believe that God is in control, but I don’t think that God appoints or decides each thing. John had a heart problem we knew nothing about… that was not God’s plan, but a consequence of living in a fallen world. Death was not God’s plan. Death came into the world after the fall. Many storms in our lives are not caused or initiated by God, but are the result of the fall. God is still in control, and sometimes he does intervene and prevent storms that threaten us. We rightly praise him and thank him for his intervention. At other times, he does not intervene but helps us through the storm. Why doesn’t he stop the storm since he can? Perhaps 2 Peter 3:9 gives a clue… The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
I think others will have a different idea of sovereignty, but that’s where I’ve come to at this time…
Kerryn,
I appreciate your good differentiation between causation and control. Job is a great example. God set the boundary (He was in control) but Satan caused the actual hardships. I think Keller’s quote above doesn’t imply that God only causes hardship for 1 of 3 reasons. I think Keller’s third reason gives room for what you said – transformation from pain caused by a fallen world. You articulated that very well.
That said I do think that God may cause some hardship to draw us close? (When I think of tough love to my kids I understand this better.) In the end the more important thing is how we respond to the storm rather than why it came, though I know through suffering we desire to know why (I found it interesting, however, as Dee points out in her book The God of all Suffering, that Job was never told why).
I do hope I don’t seem argumentative. =/ I wanted to affirm your thoughts, as you expressed you thought they were “different” and really I think you are saying much the same just in different words. =) I appreciate the discussion.
Thanks Jill. I may understand comments as ascribing purpose when that is not intended at times. I agree that the why is not important, but people often insist on telling someone who is suffering why they are suffering. Things haven’t changed much since Job’s friends. They are still wrong.
I agree with both of you…evil, death, sickness, pain, war, etc. are a result of our sinful nature, our fallen world. Who can understand the loss of a loved one suddenly, unexpectedly…only the Lord, certainly not I. I do think that sometimes God allows hardships in our life for our benefit; to help us in learning a lesson He has for us to learn, to draw us closer to Him.
Kerryn, please know that I in no way meant “God allows hardships in our life for our benefit” in regards to the loss of your husband…when I re-read this comment, I thought, oh my…that could be interpreted that way…:( …not intended as such. I do not understand losses such as your husband, youngsters, etc.; I trust that God will make it all clear for me someday in heaven.
Nanci, I’d agree completely with God allowing hardship. He knows that in his hands it will bring benefit. There’s a big difference between permitting hardship and sending hardship though. Jill’s example of Job is a case in point. Satan orchestrated Job’s suffering. God permitted it to happen.
Kerryn, I am so touched by your reply to the question and the difference you see in causation and control. Thank you for sharing it. That really does help me in regard to my daughter having life threatening illnesses. And everyone else who innocently suffers. Nothing we did as her parents and nothing she did certainly, as an innocent unborn child should have caused her to be born with CF. But God is still in control. As young parents we had to endure some very unsettling comments from other Christians. ‘if you have enough faith, she will be healed.’ ‘sometimes God has to let bad things happen to get our attention’. Both my husband and I had not wavered in our faith or in our attending to God….we loved and served Him even when we were given the hard news…… and yet, Christians (both of these statements were by people who didn’t even know us…..but who met us during the time when she was first diagnosed) made such great sweeping statements about what they thought they knew about our lives. I do know God is and was in control. But I don’t believe he caused her to have two life threatening conditions that have meant such a physical struggle all of her life. I do believe, in the midst of the struggle, he has given her an AMAZING resiliency and zest for life and determination to live life to the fullest that inspires SO many. And even though she does not acknowledge or accept His sovereignty or His redeeming love for her (which is the hardest part of all, for me) I do believe He is in control. I don’t understand it. I get very sad about it. But I still believe it.
Wanda, it makes me sad to read that Christians made such insensitive comments to you and your husband. Unfortunately, I’ve heard this before, from others. A former pastor at a church I used to attend had a sister who died as a young teenager. He related an awful comment made to his mother at the funeral for his sister, that maybe God took her young so she wouldn’t grow up to be a “bad person” (she actually said something along the lines of being an immoral woman). What also really irks me about these kinds of comments is that I think it is so presumptuous for any human to claim to know what God is thinking and why He did this or that. As if we can get inside His mind and then tell others the “why”.
Kerryn, I replied to your post above, and then I read this one…you are really digging-in here and I appreciate your thoughts on the difference between control and causation.
This afternoon, I heard a very brief comment on the radio about how praise helps us see & acknowledge God’s “bigness”/his greatness. A few minutes ago, I looked at pics of another town (& farms) in the area that experienced tornado damage tonight. The photos of the funnel clouds and lightening were impressive — and beautiful. Despite the devastation, I could see beauty and God’s creativity in the storm’s power.
I can’t wrap my brain around the seemingly contradictory sensory overload. After looking at the pictures, I remembered when I slept through a tornado (in a 3rd floor apartment!) when less than a mile away, the community was destroyed. Sometimes, God spares me from the devastating impact of storms. Other times, the storms hit hard. I just listened to Praise You In This Storm by Casting Crowns. In the past, I heard this song primarily as about God reaching down, being with me during the storm. Now I’m hearing God’s greatness when I listen to the song. He transcends and is in control of storms — and praising him is changing my perspective.Last night and today, I’ve experienced an unanticipated internal storm (no tornado watches or warnings for it, although the topic itself might have set off sirens if I’d paid more attention). Initially, my focus was on myself, my “storm damage;” during the day and because of the topic of this week’s study, I was more aware that God is in control — and eventually, He reminded me of himself, this time of his power. My focus shifted — from myself, to the belief that he is is control, to seeking and praising him.
I don’t “get” the combination of His power and His love. Seeing Him doesn’t necessarily take away the pain; but beholding him puts storms in perspective. It’s as if a side effect of beholding HIM is being healed, not because situations change but because He is making things right. I don’t understand — and that’s okay because God is in control and I rest in Him, i.e., sleep through the tornado. Earlier today, I had the (not common anymore) experience of “need to call someone” & “need to process this.” Although a couple people know me and would “get it” in a way that may make “processing” worthwhile, God already knows my heart, my past, my future. Trusting God, knowing he is in control, also gives me the freedom not to be defensive when others say or do stupid (or evil) things. My head is confused 🙂 AND I know God is changing my heart. It’s hard to describe!!
Renee,
First of all the connection of your experience sleeping through a tornado and this current storm is really good, then how your focus shifted, ” I’ve experienced an unanticipated internal storm (no tornado watches or warnings for it, although the topic itself might have set off sirens if I’d paid more attention). Initially, my focus was on myself, my “storm damage;” during the day and because of the topic of this week’s study, I was more aware that God is in control — and eventually, He reminded me of himself, this time of his power. My focus shifted — from myself, to the belief that he is is control, to seeking and praising him.”
And thanks for bringing out the reality that seeing him doesn’t necessarily take away the pain; but beholding him puts storms into perspective. The end of that passage in Isaiah Dee had us study helped me yesterday to be reminded-“what is man compared to Him?!?” The whole passage of Isaiah 2 so encouraged me of His power-helped me to put things into perspective when I begin to fret over something someone has said or done. Then I got to verse 22 “Stop regarding man in whose nostrils is breath, for of what account is he?” Sooo puts things into perspective by the time you get to that verse.
Yes! I have had my own intense storm this week and yesterday I was thinking I am clinging to Him to make it go away….wrong (at least in my circumstance). And then I read a chapter last night of Ann Voskamp that spoke directly to my struggle and now this morning, Renee, you are sharing my own thoughts and encouraging me to behold Him! Thank you. The pain is pain but God is God.
This helps me tonight, Jill. After reading the discussion about God being in control. And reading Kerryn’s good observations about control and causation, I wrote my thoughts….but in the process, I also stirred up the pain of the last 28 years of watching my daughter struggle with incurable illness . And the realization that her life expectancy (average age for her condition) and her current age are getting closer and closer to being the same. My mind just can’t go there. But my pain does. I’m glad that I don’t have to figure out God and pain and the correlation. (even though I read and read and try to figure it out sometimes: Many books by Yancy, CS Lewis’ “The Problem of Pain”….I open those books frequently.) But I don’t have to know. I can know that they are separate.
I like this Renee ” Trusting God, knowing he is in control, also gives me the freedom not to be defensive when others say or do stupid (or evil) things.”
9. Find ways God showed mercy to Noah and his family in:
A. Genesis 6:17-18
God will save Noah:
‘But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark—you and your sons and your wife and your sons’ wives with you.’ (Genesis 6:18 NIV)
B. Genesis 7:16
God preserved 2 of each animal, so they could procreate.
‘The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the Lord shut him in.’ (Genesis 7:16 NIV)
C. Genesis 8:1
God saved the Earth from the flood by sending the wind to dry it up.
‘But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded.’ (Genesis 8:1 NIV)
9A. Genesis 6:17-18
The Lord warned them of the coming flood; He confirmed His covenant with Noah; He directed them to get into the ark at the appropriate time.
9B. Genesis 7:16
The Lord closed the door of the ark when all that was to be on the ark was present and the flood was to commence.
9C. Genesis 8:1
The Lord was mindful of Noah and all on the ark. He sent a wind to blow across the land and the flood waters receded.
9D. Genesis 9:1-3
The Lord blessed Noah and his sons; He directed them to be fruitful and multiple. The Lord gave Noah and his sons authority over the earth’s vegetation, animals, etc. (How does this echo God’s command to Adam and what does this imply? This does echo God’s interaction with Adam in the garden of Eden. This implies a new beginning…a re-start of the original plan.)
9E. Genesis 9:13-17
The rainbow is a sign of the Lord’s covenant with all living creatures. Never again will the Lord flood the earth to destroy all life.
11. I watched the video as well. I thought the same as Rebecca, that perhaps Ray Comfort was a little heavy on the law (by the way Rebecca, I did not think you sounded ‘superior’ or dug a hole, I think we all know you are humble and compassionate). But I s’pose if you already think you are clean it doesn’t help to be told you can have a clean cloak. But… Who was it that said (Renne, is this Pascal?) the more you speak of the beauty of Christ the more people will want Him?
I had not truly noticed the reference to the “days of Noah” before. My heart is heavy for those that do not see. I cannot imagine being Noah and knowing, as the boat lifted off of the ground, that all others were perishing. I am aware each time I see another person that eternity is at stake but I am terrible at “street evangelism” always afraid that I am being judgemental and not convinced its the best approach for everyone? I do not discern well between divine appointments and guilt accusations (satan trying to tell me that “I need to save everyone”) when I am in a crowd. I do notice, however, that the more I study the more I cannot refrain from sharing His beauty in conversation. This is a good step and I pray He continues to change me.
I appreciate the video for the points of view and new perspectives it presented to have in my ‘tool bag’ in speaking to others about such things. I wonder if the majority of the time it is a heart issue and not a fact issue?
I thought that too, Jill (and Rebecca) — a bit legalistic and yet also good. Sometimes we have to mine the gold from believers! 🙂
I know it was Pascal, and perhaps Renee too! 🙂
10. Challenge question: Do you believe that God is in control of every storm — or not? If not, what does that mean theologically? If so, can you support this scripturally?
I believe God is in control of every storm. Otherwise I would have to admit that there is some other force more powerful than God — and I don’t believe that at all. I would be absolutely terrified if I thought that elements of nature were manipulated by some other ultra-strong force (that might not be as merciful as God and have our best interest at heart).
Exodus 9:18 God says to Pharaoh “I will send the worst hailstorm that has ever fallen on Egypt, from the day it was founded till now.” This was one of the ten plagues and God tells why he is doing this in vs. 16 “But I have raised you up for this very purpose that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
In Exodus 14, we read of the Israelites crossing through the Red Sea, with God controlling the waters so that they get through but the Egyptians did not.
In Joshua 10:12-14, God makes the sun to stand still in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. This was after God had hurled large hailstones down on the Amorites that Israel was fighting in the battle for Gibeon, also in Joshua 10.
Jonah 1:4 reads “Then the Lord sent a great wind on the sea, and such a violent storm arose that the ship threatened to break up.”
In the New Testament, the most profound demonstration of God’s control over a storm was in Mark 4:35-41 (which Elizabeth has already quoted vs. 41) “They were terrified and asked each other, “Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!” This is also found in Luke 8:22-25.
In Mark 13 5-8, Jesus is telling of the future (which he could not have predicted if the Lord didn’t have these things under his control), and he says in verse 8b: “There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines…”
Great scriptural support, Deanna.
10. Do you believe that God is in control of every storm–or not? If so, can you support this spiritually?
I do believe that God is in control of all which would include “every storm.” In Matthew 19:26, Jesus tells his disciples that “with God all things are possible,” in Luke 1:37, the angel tells Mary that “nothing is impossible with God.” In Romans 1:20, Paul says “since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–His eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made”. In Isaiah 44:24, the Lord says, “I am the Lord, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by Myself.” These are just a few scriptural texts that speak of the Lord’s omnipotence. I do believe that the Lord is in control of all. I also believe that the Lord allows for human free will…e.g., Adam and Eve made their own decision of whether to be disobedient or to remain obedient. In His omniscience, the Lord is well aware of our disobedience and provides for that as well. Romans 8:28 tells us that “in all things God works for the good of those who love Him”. This does not mean that I understand all that is occurring in our world, the evil and injustice, violence and oppression…it just means that I trust that the Lord has all well in hand; I do not have the mind of God. There is evil in this world that is tied to human free will, but the Lord will use even this in some manner “for the good of those who love Him”.
Kerryn–you have been heavy on my heart today. I read your post earlier on my ipad but have been out all day & unable to post. I just want to say again I am so sorry for the loss of your husband. I cannot imagine how I would even breathe if I lost my own. You said “people often insist on telling someone who is suffering why they are suffering.” Oh so true, and SO painful. One of my older favorite blog posts of his is called “4 Wrong Answers to the Question “Why Me?”. In it, he says “Yes, we don’t know the reason God allows evil and suffering to continue, or why it is so random, but now at least we know what the reason isn’t—what it can’t be. It can’t be that he doesn’t love us! It can’t be that he doesn’t care. He is so committed to our ultimate happiness that he was willing to plunge into the greatest depths of suffering himself.”
One last thing, I know I’ve mentioned it before, but I honestly do not know of any book that handles suffering as well as Dee’s God of All Comfort. I’d love to send you a copy in Australia if you don’t have it.Glad you’re here, Kerryn.
That is so lovely, Elizabeth. Thank you. While my mind loves to wrestle with the questions, my heart has learned to rest in God’s love and I am more content than I was to stay with mystery. I mentioned that I work in aged care – I find that my experience helps there as I frequently talk with people who are grieving. Often people have explanations for their suffering. Where these give them comfort, I do not challenge them, even if I disagree with the view of the world they present. Where their explanations bring them distress – eg “What have I done to deserve this?”, indicating they equate suffering with punishment – I’ll offer another way of looking it. Where people are not seeking to explain suffering, I don’t offer explanations. I don’t have adequate explanations. Rather I assure them of God’s presence and love. That’s all I have.
I don’t have Dee’s book, but a book I have found most helpful is by Jerry Sittser, A Grace Disguised
11. Watch video and comment.
I watched the 30-minute video, and basically I enjoyed it. If this was an unscripted interview process, I am surprised that some of the people actually continued talking with the interviewer, considering the “challenge” Ray Comfort was presenting in most cases. It seemed genuine, but I have no way of knowing if it had been scripted or not. I know I am sounding skeptical here 🙂
Comfort was interviewing people under the general outline of the ten signs that the end-times are upon us: (1) False teachers will deceive using words; (2) there will be famines and earthquakes; (3) the moon will turn blood red; (4) Blasphemy will become common place; (5) there will be an increase in homosexuality; (6) Religious hypocrisy will be prevalent; ( 7) People will deny that God created the earth and heavens and that he judged men with the Great Flood; (8) There will be fear of the future; (9) Scoffers will say these signs have always been around; (10) People are ignoring the Gospel.
I liked some of the points that were made. It is true that we don’t hear people taking in vain the name of Mohammed, Shakespeare, or Napoleon, etc. So why do so many take the name of Jesus and God in vain? Good question! Why do supposed Christian people pay Hollywood to make a movie like Wolf of Wall Street that used the F-word 506 times and blasphemed God 28 times?
I thought he also made a good point about wataching “love-making” scenes in movies — that if it happened in real life, people would call the police for a “peeping Tom!”
I was amazed that Ray Comfort got that many people to admit at the end of the video that they were actually liars, thieves, and blaspheming adulterers at heart, and that they were going to hell. I was relieved when he finally got to the grace of Jesus Christ near the very end of the video. I loved his illustration about the “loose parachute” — that if we saw someone about to jump with a loose parachute, we would quite naturally tell them in time, so he was sharing the gospel with those he was interviewing.
Overall, I felt the video was taking me up one more level toward conservatism and legalism, but I was cerainly able to mine some gold. I sent a link to my pastor, indicating it might be a good discussion-starter with our youth group. I haven’t heard back from her yet.
Reading through the discussion above, I interspersed some of my thoughts regarding suffering and God’s control. But it made me really want to share with you a paragraph or two from Dave and Jan Dravecky’s book ‘When You Can’t Come Back’. If you’re not familiar with his story, Dave was a major league pitcher for the San Francisco Giants in the ’80s. He was diagnosed with cancer in his arm and later made an impressive, very newsworthy ‘comeback’ to baseball. But it was short lived as the cancer returned and he had to undergo an amputation. I never read the book ‘Comeback’ which was very popular at the time, but I picked up ‘When You Can’t Comeback’ when our 23 year old friend was suffering from cancer that might have taken her leg….and her parents and family were suffering so. The whole book was an enormous help to me.
He speaks of people confusing the result of their suffering with the purpose of their suffering and says:
“As a result of my surgery, the hospital got a specimen it could study to advance its knowledge of cancer. That’s a good thing, because what they learn will be used to help others with the disease. It wouldn’t be a good thing though, if the purpose of my surgery was to provide an arm so that the pathology department could have a specimen to study. If a doctor performed an unnecessary amputation on a healthy person, even for a purpose as noble as medical research, he would be ruled a sadistic butcher by the hospital board and lose his license. And yet we indict God as being that kind of surgeon when we confuse the results of our suffering with its purpose.”
and in relation to this week’s study…..and the storms that have been happening in so many places…..this is another great quote: “…..forcing your mind into ‘sunshine thoughts’ when you’re going through a time of depression is like standing in the rain and denying there’s a storm. Faith is not denying the weather that sweeps over our life. It’s believing that behind the clouds and beyond the storms waits a faithful God.”
That rings so true with me, Wanda. I like that wording – confusing the result of their suffering with the purpose of their suffering – and also the analogy. Thanks for posting those quotes.
Thanks, Wanda…these excerpts are so fitting.
Wanda, these comments are great. And you have whetted my appetite to read the book. Dee speaks to the hurtful, yet common, practice of saying things to hurting people that are either not helpful or cause more hurt. =/ I think when we see someone hurting we want to make it go away, for them to feel better. But we can’t. After reading The God of all Comfort I have a different approach to these situations, so hopefully I won’t cause more hurt but can just show support and love. I wanted to tell you that I appreciate you sharing your experiences and thoughts.
Wanda, this is really helpful, the quote from the book about not confusing the result with the purpose of suffering. But I see this happen time after time, that people take the result, or the outcome of a trial or suffering, and say that must’ve been the reason, or purpose, for it.
10. Challenge question: Do you believe that God is in control of every storm — or not? If not, what does that mean theologically? If so, can you support this scripturally?
I answered this in bits and pieces in several of my comments above. I guess, above I didn’t support my thoughts with scripture. I do believe God is in control of storms. I do not believe God causes storms (tragedy, devastating losses) in our lives. (see my above comments)…. But I do believe He is ever faithful and loving to walk with us through those storms. Some of my personal experiences and years of processing have brought me to have confidence in His sovereignty even when the pain remains. I was processing and synthesizing some of these thoughts in several examples above.
Many times we hear Romans 8:28 quoted when people are going through storms. I like that verse but it has, at times, felt simplistic when I was struggling with life and death issues. When I was going through the great pain of knowing how much my daughter would suffer with CF throughout her life, I reacted negatively and felt sort of hurt, when people quoted it to me. BUT if I read further and absorbed Romans 8: 38 and 39, I am comforted by the solid truth that nothing separates me from the love of God.
“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God, that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.’
This tells me He is in control. And His love is greater than anything. If Paul could be confident after all he endured….so can I.
Very true. Romans 8:28 is often quoted, but also often misquoted. It’s worthwhile keeping verse 29 in view too – the ‘good’ God works for in our lives is not success, prosperity, happiness.
D. Genesis 9:1-3 (How does this echo God’s command to Adam and what does this imply?)
Here God is merciful in that He gives Noah dominion over the animals. He also gave Adam rule over the animals.
E. Genesis 9:13-17.
The rainbow will be a reminder that God would never bring another flood to destroy Earth.
10. Challenge question: Do you believe that God is in control of every storm — or not? If not, what does that mean theologically? If so, can you support this scripturally?
I do believe God is in control of all storms because He is King of all things. I guess I just struggle with “why?” Why would He want His children to suffer? We hate watching our own kids struggle and want them to be happy and content. Why would He allow hardships? I suppose we learn from them, and having struggles makes us less “addicted” to Earth…..reminds me of that “blessings” song….
We pray for blessings, we pray for peace
Comfort for family, protection while we sleep
We pray for healing, for prosperity
We pray for Your mighty hand to ease our suffering
And all the while, You hear each spoken need
Yet love us way too much to give us lesser things
‘Cause what if your blessings come through rain drops
What if Your healing comes through tears
What if a thousand sleepless nights are what it takes to know You’re near
What if trials of this life are Your mercies in disguise
We pray for wisdom, Your voice to hear
We cry in anger when we cannot feel You near
We doubt your goodness, we doubt your love
As if every promise from Your word is not enough
And all the while, You hear each desperate plea
And long that we’d have faith to believe
‘Cause what if your blessings come through rain drops
What if Your healing comes through tears
What if a thousand sleepless nights are what it takes to know You’re near
What if trials of this life are Your mercies in disguise
When friends betray us
When darkness seems to win
We know that pain reminds this heart
That this is not,
This is not our home
It’s not our home
‘Cause what if your blessings come through rain drops
What if Your healing comes through tears
What if a thousand sleepless nights are what it takes to know You’re near
What if my greatest disappointments or the aching of this life
Is the revealing of a greater thirst this world can’t satisfy
What if trials of this life
The rain, the storms, the hardest nights
Are your mercies in disguise
Wonderful song lyrics, Laura. I have never read them word for word before…..I think it fits perfectly with this discussion. Thank you.
DEE – I am so embarrassed. I called your book by the wrong name yesterday! The God of all Comfort (not suffering!!). My mind was stuck in our conversation of suffering. Please forgive me!
Oh — it’s fine, Jill. I’m Reformed, so I do believe He is also the God of all suffering in the sense that He has never lost control.
Rebecca, I just read your post and this really stood out to me: “He sears it in their hearts not us, and he fills in the places in his timing that we may miss-and I fully believe in his sovereignty perhaps those missed places were supposed to be missed. I know I am not as well spoken and able to reason with non believers as well as Ray Comfort did!”
I had a conversation with an atheist coworker who I have known for years about ultimate truth and all she would say is “I don’t get it, I don’t understand what you mean.” I had to leave it with God and pray that something good would be gleaned from my fumbling explanations.
I also went back to her and wanted to make sure that she didn’t think that I was thinking that I’m better than her or perfect in any way (kind of how you did with your follow up comments). She said, “Don’t worry I’ve known you too long for that!” ??!!??
Dawn, loved this response and will pray for your-coworkers heart. How awesome. It sounds like God is already moving in your relationship with her! 🙂
9. Find ways God showed mercy to Noah and his family in:
A. Genesis 6:17-18 – after saying that He was going to bring the flood to destroy all flesh on the earth, God told Noah that He would establish a covenant with him and that he and his family would enter the ark (and remain alive). So there is the promise of a new covenant.
B. Genesis 7:16 – After Noah and his family and all the animals entered the ark, God closed the door. It’s like God was seeing to their safety personally.
C. Genesis 8:1 – God did not forget about Noah and all the animals in the ark. He made the waters begin to subside on the earth.
D. Genesis 9:1-3 (How does this echo God’s command to Adam and what does this imply?) – God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, as He said to Adam when He created Adam and Eve, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth”. God was making Noah and his family the stewards of His creation, giving them the purpose of re-populating the earth. God gave every plant and now animals for food. Now animals would fear man.
E. Genesis 9:13-17 – God invented the rainbow and said that it would be a sign of His covenant with Noah and with all flesh upon the earth. God promised that there would never be another flood to destroy the whole earth.
10. Challenge question: Do you believe that God is in control of every storm – or not? If not, what does that mean theologically? If so, can you support this scripturally?
I believe Scripture makes it clear that God reigns supreme. Ephesians 1:21 describes the position of Jesus Christ in heaven, that He is “far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come.” I do not question His position as King. I have read everyone’s comments…so much, so rich, so much to think about. Kerryn had such good thoughts on the difference between control and causing. When I read in the news things like what happened in Nebraska with the little town of Pilger being destroyed by two tornadoes, I do not believe that God caused that to happen. I know there were no tornadoes in the Garden of Eden, but because Creation also experienced the fall-out, we have them now. Yet God is still in control, and He has a plan. I guess His main plan is and always has been to take care of our number one problem, which is our sin that separates us from Him. He will get all of His children safely home to heaven, and nothing can ever change that. I also know that men and women have the freedom to choose; God does not control us like robots. Some of you have mentioned the trafficking of children…that is so evil and there are people that choose to be wicked like that and they hurt innocent people in the process; innocent children are hurt. I am really struggling with this. My dad’s father physically abused him…I’ve seen the scars on my dad’s head where his father threw him into a wall and he had to get stitches. Did God cause his father to be abusive – no. Was God in control – He did not “control” the father to stop abusing his son. Did God preserve the life of my dad? I believe yes.
To be honest, I am afraid of the storms of life…death, sickness. I don’t want to see people I love suffer. I never want to feel again like I did when my nephew died, yet I know I will. I know I am not strong enough to handle what this life serves-up on my own. I need God to carry me through life’s storms. Maybe that is why Jesus promised us to always be with us…He didn’t promise explanations or reasonings, but just to be with us because that is what we need most.
Susan…..such honest expressions from your heart and experience. I think your statements are right. God didn’t ‘control’ the father to stop abusing his son….but he did preserve the life of the son. I appreciate your last two sentences a lot too. Beyond any doubt or questions, we know God is with us and that His heart loves and longs for us to be with Him in our suffering.
Wanted to jump on this morning-to ask for prayer..I am excited I get to teach 5th grade at our church this Summer. I have spent some time with the kids-some hearts seem not open yet and some are tender. This Sunday’s lesson is on God’s Power!! :))) I want to incorporate what we are learning on the blog this week in Psalm 29..So pray. I need Him to help me sense what the kids need in seeing Him first and he would attract them to Himself as we interact and get into his word. I am enjoying getting to know them and seem to be connecting with them and especially the girls!
Oh Rebecca, What a fun age! Praying for you. So excited for you 🙂
Wow Rebecca…God is opening doors for you left and right! I’ll be praying for you as you teach and connect with these young kids!
In response to Susan’s question “Can we always say that suffering has a purpose?” I don’t think it helps me to discern if suffering has a purpose as much as it helps me to know God will use it, if that make sense. It was Keller who said “God will not waste our tears” and that comforts me greatly. I see more that He allows certain trials but in His mercy, He uses them. So when I am tempted to ask “why this? why me? what is the purpose?” I want to say “Lord, (I don’t like this but) use this to make me more like You, please don’t let it be for nothing”.
I just came across this that helps put Isaiah 45:6-7 in perspective, for me. John Mackay (commentary on Isaiah, pg 167): “Isaiah is not asserting that God does moral evil;nevertheless, by creating mankind with the possibility of contrary choice, he has set up the circumstances in which it is permitted to exist. Yahweh brings both the good and the bad circumstances of life into existence and uses them and the evil choices of morally responsible beings to fulfill his purposes for his own glory and his people’s good.”
Other good passages to remember:
1 John 1:5: “This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.”
Genesis 50:20: “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.”
Acts 2:23: “this Jesus — delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.”
I agree with Kerryn in learning to be content with the mystery, which requires my trust in who He says He is. We are not given all the answers. If something were to happen to someone I love today–I know I would ask “why?!” and I know that He would hold me still. So many things do not make sense to me, mental illness is one are I have always struggled to understand the “why”. But I know His ways are beyond me and I have to rest in who He is, His character. He is Good.
the passage from Genesis is so good, Elizabeth. “God meant it for good to bring it about that many people should be kept alive….” What a picture of God redeeming, transforming, bringing purpose to circumstances that began as evil from the sin of the hearts of Joseph’s jealous brothers!
Elizabeth, Such a good post. Regarding what you and Kerryn wrote about being content with the mystery: I think I’m often better off not knowing why; mysteries protect me until I have the big picture. To think that God willed for something to happen when I’m in the midst of pain would be difficult. I’m already amazed at how God weaves such seemingly odd combinations together. In the end, I’ll see the big picture, the tapestry. In the meantime, I know that each needle stab is part of His tapestry. I’ll know what I need to know when he reveals it.
Renee–this is good “I think I’m often better off not knowing why; mysteries protect me until I have the big picture.” and also below, where you said this “I can’t separate all the parts because I don’t have the big picture. ” I relate to that whole paragraph about your dad (and I am sorry too for your mom’s struggle)–and your insight on how we tend to think that if it is to get our attention, maybe we could have…but it can all be for me a never ending cycle of thought, and I like how you stopped and just remind us of our limited perspective. We do not know the big picture, and there in lies our need to trust the Painter.
I like the idea of the “tapestry”…there can be loose threads, knots, irregular stitches, etc. on the backside, but when it is turned over the beauty is revealed. Such a wonderful illustration of our present and future.
Dee.…..I couldn’t reply above to yours and Susan’s question regarding suffering and purpose. I’m wondering what you think of the Dave Dravecky quote regarding purpose and result of suffering. He makes a clear and helpful distinction I think. It sure helped me when a dear friend… a dancer and dance instructor, age 23….was facing the possible amputation of her leg because of cancer. She is a believer and was so resolute in her trust. So many were praying her leg would be spared. I don’t know if there’s scriptural basis completely or not, but I could not wrap my head around God purposing for her to lose her leg. (highly skilled doctors who worked with a dedication to do all possible to save it, were able to remove the tumor and save the leg….thanks be to God) I can believe that the suffering she has (and continues to have) can result in some good things and that God can bring purpose to that suffering. I think of Joni Eareckson Tada and how her suffering has been used in countless people’s lives across the globe. I can’t say God willed for her to break her neck and be paralyzed (nor did he will my brother in law to live in a wheelchair without the use of his legs since he was 22 years old). I don’t think God purposed it. But it has resulted in his coming into a vibrant faith in Jesus and he has grown a lot through Joni’s ministry too. The result may have been the same without the accident that paralyzed him. Or maybe it would have taken him longer to come to the Lord. If I am to believe that God had called and predestined him, I must believe that he would have come to know God at some point in his life….that God had ordained it. But the when and the how I don’t know. The ‘whys’ and ‘what ifs’ I try to avoid completely. But I can see how ‘God CAUSES all things (the circumstances) to work together for good. That doesn’t say He caused those circumstances to happen....but that he causes them to result in good. As for the Isaiah passage….the NIV says….’I bring prosperity and create disaster’…..that’s a hard one. I think I need to know more of the bigger picture…..the nuances of meaning…..the context. I know this is in the Book of Comfort (chapters 40-66) and redemption portion of Isaiah which contains some of my favorite portions of the Word. So, I don’t think it speaks of punishment or judgement. It must be God relating to his children.
I realize my examples are anecdotal in nature, but that is where the rubber meets the road. In real life examples.
Wanda, At the moment I’m thinking we might not always be able to distinguish between the results of suffering and its purpose — and that the two may sometimes overlap. (I sorta was pondering some of this in a post I just deleted 🙂 )
Renee…..I agree that we can’t always know. I generally don’t even try. But I do think it’s important not to indict God as One who wills all of the suffering to happen. That’s what I really react to. Like the person who told me that told me that ‘God needed to get my attention’ so my daughter was born with CF. I now think that kind of statement is not only heartless…..but it is wrong. (she also didn’t even know me. God had had my attention for a long time…..) Suffering often results in good. But I’m not convinced that God wills or purposes it.
Oh Wanda, this breaks my heart! (What that woman said to you.)
I think the worst thing about that is that it condems YOU. As in – you are so bad that you needed something awful to happen… Aside from our conversation about God intending, purposing, allowing suffering these kind of statements are a personal attack and have a sense of self-righteousness about them…sorry for going on so. I have seen so many parents suffer through their child’s pain (in the pediatric intensive care unit) and I just can’t even think of someone being so unaware of a tender heart in a hard situation!
OK. End rant. My heart goes out to you Wanda.
and I’m reminded of Michael Card’s lyrics….”surrender the hunger to say ‘I must know’. Have the courage to say, ‘I believe’ “ (from ‘God’s Own Fool’)
I’ve been thinking more on this…theologically, the implications of believing that God is not in control or “hands off” would be what I believe Thomas Jefferson believed, and that would be to be a “deist” – that God created us and the world but He is not personally involved in what goes on here on earth. Personally, I think that would lead to rather dislike God or to be angry at Him for His perceived uninvolvement.
Can I believe He’s in control without believing He causes or purposes every storm? I think so. And that is different than a position that says he is ‘hands off’ and out of control…..which I don’t believe.
Just read this on a FB post (emphasis mine): “Though I walk in the midst of trouble, you preserve my life, you stretch out your hand against the wrath of my enemies, and your right hand delivers me. The Lord fulfills his purpose for me; your steadfast love, O Lord, endures forever.” Ps 138:7-8
This week, I’ve continued to revisit 10. Challenge question: Do you believe that God is in control of every storm — or not? I did believe that God is in control of most (!) storms, and this week, as I’ve read comments and Scripture verses on this blog, I’ve continued to come back to the phrase “every storm.” Sometimes when I have doubts — or when what I believe at an intellectual level isn’t consistent at a spiritual/emotional level, I tune out or shut down. Now, I’m believing that He is in control of my tuning out/shutting down: His timing is perfect, and He works in ways that are best for me. I don’t grasp the details and the “why,” but over time, He gives hints, reveals more. I (hope I) wouldn’t make hurtful, unhelpful statements to someone in the midst of intense grief (I’ve been hurt by them). Likewise, I wonder if God waits to reveal some truths to me until a time when they might be helpful. I know I’ve heard some comments in response to grief which are dead wrong/inaccurate, but I’m suspecting other statements might have been “true” … but with very bad/harmful timing. (e.g., “God will do whatever it takes to get our attention.”)
Scripture support: I know this is indirect… I do believe the “big picture” Scripture that describes God’s power, His control. But the problem is in my heart. I keep coming back to Peter’s words to Jesus (John 6): “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.“
Yesterday, I listened to Keller talk on “The Theology of Singleness” (it had broad relevance). One thing he mentioned is that good marriages get in the way of relationships with Jesus (i.e., who needs Jesus if they have an adoring spouse or can depend on someone else to meet their needs?). My life flashed before me, and I saw God’s faithfulness — and how loss and betrayal of trust has led me to Jesus (sometimes through a maze) and that I can trust Him to be faithful in areas in which I lack trust. I didn’t “need” an earthly father because my Heavenly Father promised to meet my needs; I don’t “need” a spouse. And I’ve learned that I don’t “need” a job and I don’t “need” to be employable (although I seem to forget this because I think I “need” to be independent). I need Jesus. Storms of life have driven me to Jesus (Where else would I go?). The challenge is that turning to Him often is not my default mode. Family isn’t my default mode; bad “Christian” teaching (with poor timing) and cult-like experiences distanced me from family, though some Christians provided tremendous support for my family and myself; I did have some hope. I couldn’t trust myself — went from a high achiever to a sick, unemployed dropout. Then, I learned not to trust (most) Christians. Where else would I go? When I have an ounce of strength and health, I usually want control. Perhaps it was God’s direct purpose for me to lose so much that I only could depend on him? (would not have been smart to tell me that at the time!) Or perhaps, the bad stuff was the result of living in a fallen world, sin of others, etc. Or, both? I don’t know. I do know that the painful stuff I don’t want to talk about still is what causes growth. I would hate to go through it again, but I also wouldn’t trade most of it for “easy street” (if there is such a thing!!). I would trade some of it if I had the choice — I don’t have the choice. God did. He could have prevented some things from happening, even if it interfered with other peoples’ choices. Do I believe that God is in control of every storm? At an intellectual level, I do. But I am getting mixed up at how/when He is leading me: my thoughts, my actions, trust of other people (people will continue to say stupid things and do wrong things). Where do grace and compassion fit? To what extent am I so convinced that God is in control that I will risk getting hurt at the core of my being? Or, do I need to take control to protect myself in the storms. Jesus was hurt to the core — and had victory over death. Do I trust Him in my storms? I’m not sure. Some of my behaviors might be the same whether or not I trust him. What’s wise, prudent behavior vs my own attempt to be independent? (e.g., yesterday, I encouraged someone to wait to spend money until she had a contract in hand. I don’t trust “the system,” though later in the day I was able to get a contract to her).During the last few weeks, what I struggle with most at an intellectual level has been in the Christian news a lot (via cell phone app). Emotionally & spiritually, I don’t even go there. About a week and a half ago, I started to read an online article — and quickly closed it because it was “gross.” I didn’t think much about it until comments about the article and blogs started showing up. I was interested, but thinking through the issues were difficult (still haven’t read the original article). And as I processed what I was reading, I realized that though I was deeply grieved, I was processing what I was reading at both a spiritual and emotional level. Once again, I see that God is drawing me closer to him, showing me that he is in control, and showing me that I may not “need” to do everything in my power to protect myself against pain and loss. Once again, I am circling back to the Song of Songs study. Being absolutely convinced of his love for me allows me to give him control. But on a day to day emotional, spiritual, practical level, I don’t think I always believe he is in control — He remains faithful, and that convinces me to trust him more.And because I wrote so much, this might be my take-away for the week. 🙂 Still need to listen to this week’s sermon… a little confused, but trusting him. It’s so clear that even my ability to trust is a gift from him.
Oh my! I got distracted and forgot to edit. At least if I am going to write a book, I could use paragraphs (had intended to edit out a couple chapters). I AM SO SORRY!
Thanks for your thoughts Renee. So much to think about. You always do a good job of taking apart and putting back together so many pieces
I think this whole discussion is overwhelming me on many levels about now.
Maybe that’s the only answer we need. It is comforting anyway.
Wanda, I agree. It is overwhelming and scary, especially when looking at current challenges — and at the implications of past ones, too. Yesterday, when I heard Keller say that “God does whatever it takes to get our attention” (or something similar), I could see that possibility in almost everything I had formerly attributed primarily to “fallen world.” I think of my mom. She went through so much. She was a widow at 41; she had experienced episodes of severe depression prior to my dad’s death — and was in the midst of an episode of depression when he unexpectedly died. She was a believer before (had wanted to go to a Bible College, but her family didn’t want her to) — she actively sought God. But it’s also obvious the depth of her spiritual life and complete trust in God was related directly to my dad’s death, to the difficulty of becoming a widow with children– when she was depressed in the first place (and that was an awful era to be depressed. I picked a better decade 😉 ). Where else could she go but to Him?
Yeah, I do believe that the early family heart disease/death is part of living in a fallen world. My cousin and I were recently talking about how much more difficult some things could have been if our dads (brothers) had lived longer! I don’t know that God didn’t “do it” (allow it) to get her attention or to protect my dad or us from something worse. I can’t separate all the parts because I don’t have the big picture. Part of the problem with our western way of thinking is we tend to believe that IF God “did something” to get our attention, we could have prevented it by giving Him our attention (or whatever) in the first place. I’ve often tried to distinguish between God allowing something and causing it (and even if he didn’t “cause” something, He could have prevented it … so ultimately, I end up questioning God regardless of which term I use).
I don’t have time to write about it now — but last week, someone shared with me how God “allowed” what Job experienced to get his attention. Though he was “righteous,” he still was trying to manipulate God. (i’d never thought about those details and it kinda made sense). Obviously, God doesn’t instigate evil — but I do think my vocabulary and my mind are inadequate to differentiate everything else on the continuum.
Renee…..I really appreciate what you’ve shared about your mom. I wish I had known her more. From what I did know of her and what I’ve heard you say since, she was a wonderful example of someone with complete trust. My own mom was 66 when dad died and that seemed young to me….but that is 25 years older than your mom. And we were all ‘grown’. What a difference though, to have 3 young girls still to raise on her own. Yet, I did see my mom’s trust in the Lord increase also, as she no longer had dad to fall back on. Shortly afterwards, she had some serious health issues..(major heart surgery) and that had to be hard to go through alone. So….I do see what you’re saying about ‘where else could she go’? and how it drew your mom to the Lord.
For the most part, I am very content not to know the answers to all of these questions. The mystery is appealing to me. Trying to figure it out is not something I come by easily or something that I desire.
But I am also very aware that every bit of this discussion is a part (a big part) of the struggle that my loved ones who have rejected Christianity have and are going through. Probably a big part of the reason they seem to have decided that God can’t be trusted. I read ‘The Reason for God’ by Keller in large part, because he addresses most of the questions they have asked along these lines. I liked the book and it made a lot of sense to me but maybe I should re-visit it.
I appreciate this discussion. You’re right – we don’t have the big picture. So maybe it’s not useful to develop a theology of suffering the way I did earlier… looking at my own situation and eliminating the ‘reasons for suffering’ that don’t fit my logic. In effect, I decided there’s no reason that fits my logic, so it was a result of the fall rather than intended by God. Not good logic, and not good theology.
This morning I’ve taken another line of thought. What happens if we look at suffering from the perspective of a situation where God has told us his purpose? What happens when we look at the cross? God sent (that is, deliberately intended) his Son to suffer and die so (that is, with the intended purpose) we may live. If we looked at Jesus’ crucifixion with our logic, we would conclude that God could never have intended his beloved son to suffer like that. Wouldn’t that make him a cruel and sadistic surgeon? But we know differently because God has told us so. “The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” (1 Cor 1:18)
Yes, John died because we live in a fallen world – the cross was necessary because of the fall too. But that doesn’t preclude the possibility that God has a purpose in the timing of his death. Maybe John’s death was right and timely. I don’t like or understand it at this time, but I trust that my loving Father has everything under control. So really, I end up in the same place… trusting in who God is. I’ve just taken a different path to get there this time.
Does that make any sense, or am I just rambling?
(oops… just remembered something. When John died, my pastor said something about God’s timing being good because the kids were old enough to be somewhat independent. My response to her was not polite – included words I never use! Now she laughs when I remind her of that. She’d laugh even more if she knew what I’m thinking this morning!)
12. Share your notes and comments.
-The story of the flood is about new beginnings and second chances.
-Three great relationships in life:
1. A relationship with the earth (ecology)
2. Relationship with all people of the earth (justice)
3. Relationship with the Lord (grace)
-“Covenant relationship” is a saving relationship (saved from sin).
-Relationship with Earth:
*God has a covenant relationship with the earth and living things. He saves the world from human sin (nature doesn’t work well because of sin; humans exploit nature.)
*There is no perfect balance of nature…good to some, hostile to others.
*God is committed to renewal of nature; God will renovate all.
*Psalm 19 tells how creation is speaking, evoking the glory of God…our job is to allow creation to speak and to join in.
*Humans are fallen in a way that nature (e.g., trees, dogs) isn’t.
*Humans have power over nature, but humans should look up to nature with honor and respect…nature continually and consistently practices voluntary obedience to the Lord.
-Relationship with all people:
*All human life is in the image of God and should be honored. Every human life is precious.
*Evolution (only the strong survive) is not God’s will or design.
*Christians are called to non-parochial service…sacrificial service is expected for all, believer or not.
*Look upon people in the image of God (i.e., what does the Lord deserve, not what the person in my perception might deserve).
-Intimate, personal, covenant relationship with God:
*The rainbow is a symbol of the gospel.
1. The rainbow is a backdrop of God’s grace. It shows neediness, weakness, sin…a rainbow never occurs on a bright, sunshiny day.
2. The rainbow is a sweeping promise of God’s grace. God put down His battle bow/weapon; the rainbow represents no more condemnation, wrath, and judgment for sin.
3. Astonishing Secret of God’s grace. God has not stopped being a God of justice, the judgment and wrath are pointed elsewhere (i.e., Jesus). God is relentlessly holy and infinitely loving; our relationship with God is based entirely on grace.
4. The rainbow is a thing of beauty. We are to serve God for who He is, not for what He can provide or to prove our self. We are to be grateful…gratitude.
Laura,
Thank you for sharing the lyrics to the Blessing song. Sometimes his mercy is disguised (as the song says) and sometimes we recognize it. I’m reading a book right now entitled The Mercy Prayer by Robert Gelinas.
He speaks so thoroughly about the mercy of God. Here are a few exerpts:
His presence served as a balm of hope upon their guilt.
But one reason God is not into condemnation is because his goal is transformation – and that happens best in an environment of mercy.
God’s mercy creates the canopy under which our growth into Christlikeness takes root.
God’s mercy assumes we suffer and that we will need ointment on our wounds, whether they are the result of an absentee father or chemotherapy, God makes his mercy present to us in our pain and our sufferings – deserved and undeserved.
What if our closeness to Christ actually increases the frequency of our requests for mercy.
When we say, ‘ Lord have mercy’ we are asking God to intervene in our lives……think of it this way. Imagine a line of dominoes. You push over the first one, and then you see the consequences; it hits another, which hits another, and so on. We say, Lord have mercy, and what we mean is ,down the road somewhere, step in. Pull a domino out, so this chain of events that I have started will cease. Have mercy on me. Step in. Do something about this.’
And so we need his mercies in the storms. I need his mercy in this very storm today.
Love the domino example!
Lord of the Earth-Keller
The flood shows us God is committed to creation, and He’s ready to give new beginnings, to give us a second chance. God is calling us into a life of 3 great relationships (necessary for a full human life): with the earth (ecology), with all the people of the earth (justice), and with the Lord of the earth (grace).
1. God calls us into a particular relationship with the earth. God has a covenant with us, and with the whole earth. He is committed to saving and renewing the earth. He will save the world from human sin (Romans 8).
Christianity gives us a doctrine for respecting nature. We are fallen in a way that creation is not. Creation is obedient to the Master in a way that we are not. Nature is the creation that is not corruptible. Elisabeth Elliot said ‘a clam glorifies God better than we do’. So though we have power over nature, nature deserves our respect.
2. We are called into a relationship of justice with all the people of the earth. Evolution is not God’s will. The strong eating the weak is not God’s design.
The physical world, physical needs, matter—and we should be indiscriminate in helping others. We must invite everyone to believe in Jesus, but whether they believe or not—we are called to show sacrificial service to all. Human lives are valuable because all are created in the image of God. Look at any person and don’t ask what they deserve, say ‘what does God deserve?’ because His image is on that person.
3. God calls us into an intimate, personal, covenant relationship with the Lord of the earth, based on grace.
The rainbow (v.12)-the sign of the covenant, symbol of the Gospel. It shows us the backdrop of God’s grace—*we will never find a rainbow on a sunny day. Often, we don’t find the grace unless trials are happening and never will we see it unless something has caused us to see our depravity. We have to see our need. Something has to come into our lives and be the dark back drop that shows us our sin.
The rainbow shows us the sweeping promise of God’s grace. Light refracted trough rain—actually a circle, but almost never can we see the full circle. We see the “bow”. The Hebrew word literally means a war bow, a weapon. God has laid up His war bow. There is no more condemnation. We have more than a 2nd chance. No more judgment, no more wrath. God knows this will not be the end of sin, but He shows us the promise of His grace by putting His bow up.
The rainbow shows us the astonishing secret of God’s grace. Spurgeon said if the bow was pointed down, wouldn’t that make us nervous? We should know the reason God is able to lay His bow up, because it is pointed, aimed up. God has not stopped being a God of judgment or wrath—He is aiming His wrath at Someone else. At the conjunction of sun and storm, where mercy and judgment come together, we find the rainbow. On the Cross of Jesus, we see the storm. Because of God’s holiness, Someone had to die. But we also see God’s infinite love, the Father offered His Son. In the heart of the storm, we see the rainbow of grace. Jesus went into the heart of God’s wrath, out of love, for us. He took the lightening so we could have the rainbow.
Spurgeon says we cannot go out and feed, help, serve unless we understand our our relationship with God is based on grace. He tells the story of the Gardner and the carrot—I love that one! “The gardener gave me the carrot, you gave yourself the horse…” Most go out and serve for themselves—they do good to feel better about themselves, so they aren’t doing it for the others, or for God, but for themselves.
The rainbow is a thing of beauty. Jonathan Edwards says the difference between a religions person and a Christian is a religious person is always using God, the Christian wants to serve Him for who He is, for the beauty He is. Unless we have a grace relationship, we cannot care for the earth or others for God without it crushing us.
The marks of a Christian seen in the rainbow:
Admit your need.
Study the secret of Jesus on the Cross-wrath and sun come together.
Rest in the promise of the war bow laid up.
Live a life with the dynamic of beauty, gratitude.
If you are in the middle of a storm, remember there is grace in the middle of the storm. The terrible cloud is not God’s wrath on you because all His wrath fell on Jesus. Because there was grace on the heart of God’s wrath, there is mercy in the heart of the cloud. The storm will make you like Him, at the very least. The heart of every storm, once you grasp the grace of Jesus and see He went into the middle of God’s wrath so there could be a rainbow for us, what that means is that at the heart of every storm, there is mercy and grace. “the clouds we so much dread…shall break with blessings on your head” The rainbow means wrath, storm—but also grace, beauty, mercy.
Elizabeth, THANK YOU for the wonderful notes. I’m looking forward to listening — I’m also curious about nature not being corruptible. I think mosquitoes are corrupt 😉 especially when they carry West Nile virus, also deer ticks that carry Lyme disease! Actually, I’m curious about all the points.
Kerryn, I couldn’t reply above. I LOVE what you wrote about looking at the cross, suffering for which God has told us his purpose. You do make sense — to me, anyway 😉 I smiled at what you wrote about your response to your pastor — what she said wouldn’t have been comforting at the time, sorta like being run over by a truck and then, in the ambulance, told to be thankful because you only broke both legs and one arm rather than both legs and both arms!
Elizabeth-Thanks so much for these notes! Wasn’t it beautiful to hear the real meaning of the word Rainbow-War bow??? I totally loved this sermon!
Susan, Earlier you asked why I thought some Christians are against public higher ed. I’ve thought about very specific comments I’ve heard — and those reasons vary so much: 1) every time a new building goes up on campus, one person discusses the amount she pays in taxes. (even though the buildings have been funded by private donors). Ironically, the person went to college during the era when a much larger % was subsidized by the state, to a school that has received a much larger amount of funding per student, and has received public assistance. 2) Another person (who is very familiar with some departments on campus) seems convinced that arts, humanities, and all social sciences all are evil and liberal. Complaints sounded as if they came straight from talk radio — but didn’t describe what was going on in the departments (which varied a lot). 3) Another comment: “We are blue collar, and colleges shouldn’t change that.” “Students don’t need to know that” (history, English, etc.). I don’t hear these comments from most people, but the ones who do voice these opinions speak most frequently and most loudly.
I believe that Higher Ed is “broken,” but the complaints I hear don’t even seem to be in the right ballpark. Interestingly, I didn’t hear any of the “weird” anti-university comments when attending a church in a larger university community (larger community, larger church, and much larger university), possibly because the majority of members/attendees either were highly educated, were attending the public university (i.e., students), or worked there. I suspect that people are afraid of and/or have misconceptions of the unknown — and jump to conclusions based on anecdotes, mass emails, and Facebook posts. I guess that happens in many aspects of society/life; we make assumptions with little to no evidence (e.g., everyone who doesn’t agree with me is evil 😉 ) and then do what we can to prop up our assumptions.
Thanks for your thoughts on this subject, Renee. I am dismayed by the “students don’t need to know that…” quote…oh my. God did give us our brain, and it’s good to use it (in good ways)! Wanda said that our conversation on the blog has been somewhat draining, and I’ve felt it, too…it’s hard to wrestle with all this meaning of suffering! So yesterday, I really felt like I wanted to take a break! I usually read Christian books, but I began to think about all the great, classical literature, and the pleasure of getting lost in a good story. So while at a pool with my daughter and her friend, I took along Dickens’ Tale of Two Cities. I forget how much I like to read…I borrowed the book from my son who is quite a reader himself and loves good literature like The Three Musketeers. I appreciate things like the book club on Midday Connection which encourages reading good stories, whether Christian literature or secular, and to ponder the meaning of the books. At first I kind of felt guilty for not spending my time reading a non-fiction Christian book, but using one’s intellect isn’t a waste of time!
Love this Susan! I spent years thinking that I should only read good Christian non-fiction. Other than reading to my kids, I hadn’t read a novel since college lit classes and then one day about 13 years ago, I picked one up. I was amazed at how much renewal I felt! Since then, the number of books I’ve read has skyrocketed. Both fiction and non…..because the pleasure of reading came back to me! It didn’t always feel like an ‘assignment’ 🙂
Sermon notes/comments:
I appreciated scanning between Nanci’s and Elizabeth’s notes while I listened. Thank you! The thing that stood out most to me was the lesson of the rainbow. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think most of it came from a sermon by Spurgeon. The whole picture of the bow (a hunter or warrior’s weapon) being aimed upward and not downward, as if it were shooting arrows our way…..but upward as if the arrows of God’s wrath are aimed elsewhere…at Jesus…..was really enlightening to me. The entire picture is that rainbows appear at the conjunction of sun and storm…..light and darkness……mercy and judgement. The storm is because of our sin and God’s holiness. Because God is relentlessly holy, someone had to die. Because He is infinitely loving, He gave His Son. So, on the cross was the storm of God’s justice and the Sun of God’s love and grace. Because Jesus took the lightening (the wrath)…..we can receive the rainbow (His promise….new beginnings….and redemption). I’m not sure whether it was Keller or Spurgeon who worked out this lesson of the secret of the rainbow, but it is amazing. This whole lesson on ‘Lord of Every Storm’ was so very, very timely. I think many of us have been going through a lot of rainy weather and serious storms all week. And it certainly seems as if we are all going through personal storms.
I must admit that the discussion over the past few days has been rich but draining. I may have become less sure and more confused about some things…..but less confused about others. I find myself more content to let God’s ways remain a mystery. I only need to trust and cling to His character and His providence. Keller ended the sermon with a few lyrics from this song and I think it’s a great take away for the week. I’ve shared so much (again. maybe next week, I learn how to be concise?) that I don’t think I have any more to share except these wonderful lyrics from Wiliam Cowper and if you open the link, you can hear it as well. This song addresses several things we talked about in regard to God’s hand over the storms of our lives. I find comfort in knowing that ‘God is His own interpreter’…….
http://indeliblegrace.bandcamp.com/track/god-moves-in-a-mysterious-way
God Moves in a Mysterious Way
1. God moves in a mysterious way, His wonders to perform. He plants his footsteps on the sea, And rides upon the storm. 2. Ye fearful saints fresh courage take, The clouds you so much dread, Are big with mercy, and shall break, With blessings on your head. 3. Judge not the Lord by feeble sense, But trust him for his grace. Behind a frowning providence, He hides a smiling face. 4. His purposes will ripen fast, Unfolding every hour. The bud may have a bitter taste, But sweet will be the flower. 5. Blind unbelief is sure to err, And scan His work in vain.
God is His own interpreter, And He will make it plain.
Actually, when I wrote about the lesson of the bow and the arrows…….I didn’t word it right…..but if you heard the sermon, you know what I’m talking about!