THERE IS AN OLDER BROTHER SOLUTION TO SUFFERING:
DISPLAYED IN JOB’S “MISERABLE” COMFORTERS
THERE IS A YOUNGER BROTHER SOLUTION TO SUFFERING:
DISPLAYED IN JOB’S WIFE
THERE IS A GOSPEL SOLUTION:
DISPLAYED IN JOB
The older brother way is to either hate God (for not giving us what we think we have earned) or to hate ourselves (for not living up to the moral standard that would have ensured that God would not punish us.) Job’s “miserable comforters” were sure Job had sinned, or else he would not have been suffering.
The younger brother way is to reject God, to go our own way, to, as Job’s wife advised, “Curse God and die.”
The gospel approach may mean struggling, yet inevitably surrendering, for we know God is our only hope and we know God is good. (We see this so clearly in our own Chris, whose video testimony I will show you this week, in case you haven’t seen it.) We know we deserve punishment, yet we also know that punishment was paid in full at the cross — so we are not being punished. IT IS FINISHED, He cried. (So let it be!) We know also that suffering is inevitable in this life, but for the Christian, it is only temporary. Job, the disciples, and Jesus Himself all suffered greatly in this life — but it was temporary. So we will never curse God, but look forward to the day when all tears are wiped away, death and sin are vanquished, and sorrow is turned to unimaginable joy.
In Gerald Segher’s painting above, see all three of these approaches. His style of emphasizing truth with light reveals Job not only as the gospel approach but points to the greater Job, the One who took our punishment so that we can know that we are not being punished, and the One who is our only lifeline, so we must never turn away from Him.
Many believers revert to either side of the gospel because they have a poor theology of suffering. Matt Chandler is very helpful in this two minute clip in correcting poor theology:
Sunday/Monday (For those of you who are just sharing the gold, we love to hear all your answers during the icebreakers)
1. What stood out to you from the above and why?
2. Reflect on Segher’s painting — tell us what you see.
3. How do you tend to respond to suffering?
Monday-Wednesday: Bible Study
THE YOUNGER BROTHER APPROACH TO SUFFERING
4. Do you agree with Keller that Job’s wife (see Job 2:9) represents the younger brother approach? Why or why not?
5. When suffering comes into your life, have you felt tempted to give up on God? Why or why not?
THE OLDER BROTHER APPROACH TO SUFFERING
I think for most believers who suffer, we are more likely to veer toward the error of the older brother than the younger. When my husband died of cancer in his prime. I often had thoughts like: I deserve this. I am so selfish. I forget about the poor. I could have been such a better wife to Steve. Why didn’t I lay down my speaking right away and stay home with him? I deserve this. I was overcome, not just with the grief of losing the love of my life, but with the sense I and our children were suffering because of my failures. Yet, as Chris shares in her testimony, I could not back away from God. I knew He was my only lifeline. I cried, “Help,” and He came running. Truly, I believe He led me to Keller’s sermons. I began with the psalms of lament, and then proceeded through Job. I was arrested when Keller said: When a believer suffers, it is NEVER because God is punishing Him. Jesus took that at the cross. I knew it was true and my soul found rest.
In Luther’s forward to the Galatians, he wrote: For human beings by nature, when they get near either danger or death itself, will of necessity examine their own worthiness. We defend ourselves before all threats by recounting our good deeds and moral efforts. But then the remembrance of sins and flaws inevitably comes to mind, and this tears us apart…
The older brother approach is sinister — and full of lies. When we use it on ourselves, it tears us apart. When we assume that sin is behind sorrow in others, we twist a knife in their wound. The first “friend” to speak to Job is Eliphaz, who has been listening to Job’s honest lament to God. It was Mike Mason in The Gospel According to Job, who alerted me to how the dream that Eliphaz describes to support his accusations is from Satan.
4. Read Job 3:25-26 and describe the closing of Job’s lament.
Read Job 4 in The Message (watch for the lies and the spirit of the evil one!)
Then Eliphaz from Teman spoke up:
“Would you mind if I said something to you?
Under the circumstances it’s hard to keep quiet.
You yourself have done this plenty of times, spoken words
that clarify, encouraged those who were about to quit.
Your words have put stumbling people on their feet,
put fresh hope in people about to collapse.
But now you’re the one in trouble—you’re hurting!
You’ve been hit hard and you’re reeling from the blow.
But shouldn’t your devout life give you confidence now?
Shouldn’t your exemplary life give you hope?
7-11 “Think! Has a truly innocent person ever ended up on the scrap heap?
Do genuinely upright people ever lose out in the end?
It’s my observation that those who plow evil
and sow trouble reap evil and trouble.
One breath from God and they fall apart,
one blast of his anger and there’s nothing left of them.
The mighty lion, king of the beasts, roars mightily,
but when he’s toothless he’s useless—
No teeth, no prey—and the cubs
wander off to fend for themselves.
12-16 “A word came to me in secret—
a mere whisper of a word, but I heard it clearly.
It came in a scary dream one night,
after I had fallen into a deep, deep sleep.
Dread stared me in the face, and Terror.
I was scared to death—I shook from head to foot.
A spirit glided right in front of me—
the hair on my head stood on end.
I couldn’t tell what it was that appeared there—
a blur . . . and then I heard a muffled voice:
17-21 “‘How can mere mortals be more righteous than God?
How can humans be purer than their Creator?
Why, God doesn’t even trust his own servants,
doesn’t even cheer his angels,
So how much less these bodies composed of mud,
fragile as moths?
These bodies of ours are here today and gone tomorrow,
and no one even notices—gone without a trace.
When the tent stakes are ripped up, the tent collapses—
we die and are never the wiser for having lived.’”
5. Describe the tone in which Eliphaz begins in 1-6. What does Eliphaz tell Job to trust in in verse 6? What is wrong with this?
6. How would you answer the question Eliphaz asks in verse 7?
7. Describe the dream in verses 12 through 17. Find evidences that it was not from God, but from the evil one.
My husband had a dream from the evil one when he was battling cancer. He was being carried downward on a stretcher to hell — but he cried, “No — I belong to Jesus and I am forgiven. In the name of the blood of Jesus, turn around.” They turned around and carried him up. (Usually dreams don’t end like that — but I believe God intervened, reassuring Steve that He was greater than the enemy.)
8. What question does this “spirit” ask in verse 17?
9. When suffering has come into your life, have you hated yourself or God? Why or why not?
THE GOSPEL APPROACH TO SUFFERING
Job is lamenting in chapter 13, and by verse 14, he has a question for the Lord. “If a man dies, will he live again?” The Spirit of God answers him, with the gospel!
10. According to Job 14:15, what will God one day do for each of His children and why?
11. According to Job 14:16-17, what will God do with our sin?
Without going more into Job, the Gospel appears in the three “visitations” from God to Job. First, above, assuring him his sins are forgiven. He is not being “punished” for his sin. Then, when he has a vision of God as His redeemer. And finally, in the close, when God points to creation as evidence that He is a God who is in control and when He tells Job’s friends to repent to Job. The Gospel answer from Job that I would summarize for suffering is:
- You are not being punished, Your sins are covered. They have been paid in full.
- Your Lord is your Redeemer — and one day He will stand on the earth, making all things right.
- Your God has not lost control — He will do all things well in His time.
- You may not understand now, but accept the mystery of suffering, for I have died for you, love you, am in control, and will make all things right.
12. Describe God’s words to Job’s friends in Job 42:7-9. What does this tell you?
Our own Chris defeats both the younger brother and the older brother approach in her testimony. You may have seen this before, but I think it is worth watching again to see how she does it. Here it is:
13. How does the gospel help Chris face her suffering? How did she reject both the younger and older brother approach? How did the book of Job help her?
Thursday-Friday
Listen to this sermon and share your notes: Link
Saturday:
14. What is your take-a-way and why?
417 comments
Thanks for the correction, Dee!
10. According to Job 14:15, what will God one day do for each of His children and why? God will long for His children he has created and will call them to Him.
11. According to Job 14:16-17, what will God do with our sin? God will not keep track of our sins. Our offenses will be sealed up in a bag; our sins will be covered over. In other words, God will no longer see our sins and will disregard them.
Concerning God’s words to the “friends” in Job 42: 7-9: God basically tells Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar that they have been guilty of telling lies about God. They have been giving Job false information and bad advice. He tells them to confess to Job, make burnt sacrifices, and have Job pray for them. God promises to hear Job’s prayer and have mercy on them.
4. Do you agree with Keller that Job’s wife (see Job 2:9) represents the younger brother approach? Why or why not?
She was not very comforting. She was basically saying “give up”. U did something wrong and God is punishing you for it.
5. When suffering comes into your life, have you felt tempted to give up on God? Why or why not?
I always feel shame first. I cry out to God but I always felt like I was being punished for something. That I had to put up with it.
THE OLDER BROTHER APPROACH TO SUFFERING
I think for most believers who suffer, we are more likely to veer toward the error of the older brother than the younger. When my husband died of cancer in his prime. I often had thoughts like: I deserve this. I am so selfish. I forget about the poor. I could have been such a better wife to Steve. Why didn’t I lay down my speaking right away and stay home with him? I deserve this. I was overcome, not just with the grief of losing the love of my life, but with the sense I and our children were suffering because of my failures. Yet, as Chris shares in her testimony, I could not back away from God. I knew He was my only lifeline. I cried, “Help,” and He came running. Truly, I believe He led me to Keller’s sermons. I began with the psalms of lament, and then proceeded through Job. I was arrested when Keller said: When a believer suffers, it is NEVER because God is punishing Him. Jesus took that at the cross. I knew it was true and my soul found rest.
In Luther’s forward to the Galatians, he wrote: For human beings by nature, when they get near either danger or death itself, will of necessity examine their own worthiness. We defend ourselves before all threats by recounting our good deeds and moral efforts. But then the remembrance of sins and flaws inevitably comes to mind, and this tears us apart…
The older brother approach is sinister — and full of lies. When we use it on ourselves, it tears us apart. When we assume that sin is behind sorrow in others, we twist a knife in their wound. The first “friend” to speak to Job is Eliphaz, who has been listening to Job’s honest lament to God. It was Mike Mason in The Gospel According to Job, who alerted me to how the dream that Eliphaz describes to support his accusations is from Satan.
4. Read Job 3:25-26 and describe the closing of Job’s lament.
He is in fear. That he never really deserved anything in life and now all his fears were coming true. The striving kind of shows up in the sacrifices he would make for his children in case they had sinned. He was trying to appease God. Be in control and make sure everything was alright. His view of God was dim but at the end of of the book of Job, Job said that before he had heard of God but now he saw God.
He still repented but now he saw clearly.
He had a clearly defined role of who he was -the created-
And
Who God was -the Creator-
He was at peace with himself.
Accepting of God’s will for his life
In perfect surrender.
God is good -Jesus said so “why do u call me good only your Father who is in heaven is good” and Jesus does not lie-
Not Job just God is good.
Read Job 4 in The Message (watch for the lies and the spirit of the evil one!)
Then Eliphaz from Teman spoke up:
“Would you mind if I said something to you?
Under the circumstances it’s hard to keep quiet.
You yourself have done this plenty of times, spoken words
that clarify, encouraged those who were about to quit.
Your words have put stumbling people on their feet,
put fresh hope in people about to collapse.
But now you’re the one in trouble—you’re hurting!
You’ve been hit hard and you’re reeling from the blow.
But shouldn’t your devout life give you confidence now?
Shouldn’t your exemplary life give you hope?
7-11 “Think! Has a truly innocent person ever ended up on the scrap heap?
Do genuinely upright people ever lose out in the end?
It’s my observation that those who plow evil
and sow trouble reap evil and trouble.
One breath from God and they fall apart,
one blast of his anger and there’s nothing left of them.
The mighty lion, king of the beasts, roars mightily,
but when he’s toothless he’s useless—
No teeth, no prey—and the cubs
wander off to fend for themselves.
12-16 “A word came to me in secret—
a mere whisper of a word, but I heard it clearly.
It came in a scary dream one night,
after I had fallen into a deep, deep sleep.
Dread stared me in the face, and Terror.
I was scared to death—I shook from head to foot.
A spirit glided right in front of me—
the hair on my head stood on end.
I couldn’t tell what it was that appeared there—
a blur . . . and then I heard a muffled voice:
17-21 “‘How can mere mortals be more righteous than God?
How can humans be purer than their Creator?
Why, God doesn’t even trust his own servants,
doesn’t even cheer his angels,
So how much less these bodies composed of mud,
fragile as moths?
These bodies of ours are here today and gone tomorrow,
and no one even notices—gone without a trace.
When the tent stakes are ripped up, the tent collapses—
we die and are never the wiser for having lived.’”
5. Describe the tone in which Eliphaz begins in 1-6. What does Eliphaz tell Job to trust in in verse 6? What is wrong with this?
He couldn’t keep quiet?? Almost like he was waiting for an eternity to tell Job off. One time I had a well meaning sister in Christ tell me -when I was struggling with my 1st marriage and the violence in it and not responding well -“that I should have known better”.
It cut me like a knife. I had no defense. Now I realize that It just showed her contempt of me and her lack of love.
It is like God is showing me all of my wounds and bathing them with His tears. Tears I could not see before b/c of shame, guilt and fear.
My self loathing was already there and I needed no one to point out my failings
I knew them well.
I am loved by the Lord Jesus Christ.
He died for me.
I am shouting it in my spirit and one day I know I will shout it outloud for all to hear.
What form that takes is up to God.
6. How would you answer the question Eliphaz asks in verse 7?
Yes, many problems befall mankind and that includes me but like the video of the preacher said or Keller states(love His sermons-he is saved on my favourites)Christ Jesus is the answer. It is always about Him. I don’t understand all things but I one thing I desparately understand is that the name of Jesus transcends pain and crying out to Him heals wounds and laying before Him all your pain and confusion is totally liberating.
There is no other name under the sun -other than the name of Jesus-
No other name! That brings healing!
7. Describe the dream in verses 12 through 17. Find evidences that it was not from God, but from the evil one.
It simply was mean and evil. Brought death and not life. Did not convict or lift up but rather brought fear. It was tormenting and not bringing peace or explanation. The dream bought nothing that could bring life.
My husband had a dream from the evil one when he was battling cancer. He was being carried downward on a stretcher to hell — but he cried, “No — I belong to Jesus and I am forgiven. In the name of the blood of Jesus, turn around.” They turned around and carried him up. (Usually dreams don’t end like that — but I believe God intervened, reassuring Steve that He was greater than the enemy.)
8. What question does this “spirit” ask in verse 17?
Can man be righteous?
Only through the shed blood of the lamb.
I have overcome by the word of my testimony and the shed blood of the lamb.
9. When suffering has come into your life, have you hated yourself or God? Why or why not?
I despised myself and I would tear myself or others apart trying to find out why.
I needed to throw myself at Jesus’s feet. Believe that all things work out for good, for those who are called. Sometimes there is no answer. Just the name of Jesus and that is enough.
Scripture, song, worship, reading, crying out, prayer, talking, getting outside, listening to music, writing poetry and doing this on line study group has brought me through. Many times I thought I would die from the pain of it all but God has used these last 2 years or so to do major heart surgery in my life.
To rid me of the lies I so easily believed and to replace the lies with the truth.
I like what Chris said when she longs for heaven. This is so what I long for. B/c this is not our home. Heaven is. We were created for Heaven not earth. Like Peter states- We are a peculiar people, a Holy Nation. I love that scripture. It is probably why I like looking at clouds to much. Christ left in one and He promises to return.Acts 1 vs 11. I remember when I was first saved I would walk with my dtrs.(they were in the stroller) and I would wonder and contemplate when Jesus would return. It is simply what I long for.
THE GOSPEL APPROACH TO SUFFERING
Job is lamenting in chapter 13, and by verse 14, he has a question for the Lord. “If a man dies, will he live again?” The Spirit of God answers him, with the gospel!
10. According to Job 14:15, what will God one day do for each of His children and why?
God will answer. God will long for us, for the people He created. That is so powerful. That God talks with people. Like Adam in the cool of the day; or Enoch that just kept right on walking and talking with God to Heaven; Elijah – a chariot was brought for him-; God buried Moses. God looked on Moses as a friend.
Incredible that God cares. That He is preparing a home and a feast for us in heaven.
11. According to Job 14:16-17, what will God do with our sin?
He will bury it in a bag. God will cover over our sin.
Without going more into Job, the Gospel appears in the three “visitations” from God to Job. First, above, assuring him his sins are forgiven. He is not being “punished” for his sin. Then, when he has a vision of God as His redeemer. And finally, in the close, when God points to creation as evidence that He is a God who is in control and when He tells Job’s friends to repent to Job. The Gospel answer from Job that I would summarize for suffering is:
•You are not being punished, Your sins are covered. They have been paid in full.
•Your Lord is your Redeemer — and one day He will stand on the earth, making all things right.
•Your God has not lost control — He will do all things well in His time.
•You may not understand now, but accept the mystery of suffering, for I have died for you, love you, am in control, and will make all things right.
These stmts. r so powerful Dee. Again God is speaking through u. Hallejah!
12. Describe God’s words to Job’s friends in Job 42:7-9. What does this tell you?
God sees all and God vindicates. He shows mercy b/c He does not destroy them. He honors Job. He trusts Job to pray for them. Hallejah!
Our own Chris defeats both the younger brother and the older brother approach in her testimony. You may have seen this before, but I think it is worth watching again to see how she does it. Here it is:
13. How does the gospel help Chris face her suffering? How did she reject both the younger and older brother approach? How did the book of Job help her?
She crys out and stops asking why. She trusts God and she looks forward to Heaven. Her walk with God is deeper than ever before and she honors God as God honors her. God did not spare her pain but walked with her through the pain.
That is quite a testimony.
Pure Gold.
Wonderful Mellany!
6. How would you answer the question Eliphaz asks in verse 7?
Yep. I have known some very good people who have had extremely tough lives, my mom being one. However, she is probably the most God seeking person I know. Once again, John the Baptist was beheaded! We could go on and on. I was watching the “Bible” miniseries on Sunday night and learned the story of Sampson and Delilah. I never knew she betrayed him, was responsible for his being blinded, and then he was killed when he took out the Phillistines. Such pain, and he was born to a joyful mom who had no idea he was to literally give himself for God. Many stories of suffering.
Hello Dee and fellow travelors on this journey:
Loved the video of Matt Chandler, its so true about following Jesus, when I was asking God why???? over the death of my parents and baby so many years ago (especially because I had laid hands on him and prayed three times for his life) the Holy Spirit reminded me of that particular scripture and even Jesus cousin was not healed or released, but died. It was not the answer I wanted but it was one I could finally accept.
Dawn MS, the response to suffering is exactly how I respond, whine, whine and talk, talk and TAKE IT AWAY!!!
And Kim, your reflection on the painting is so wonderful to see the greater Job, who is Jesus. And all the comments reflect what I saw also the hands, the looks, the pointing finger of the wife.
THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR THE PRAYERS FOR MEGAN, SHE HAD HER SECOND CHEMO AND HAS GOOD TIMES THROUGH OUT THE DAY AND THEN GETS EXTREMELY EXHAUSTED QUICKLY. HER DR. APPT. IS THIS FRIDAY, WE WILL HEAR IF SURGERY WILL BE AN OPTION. I WILL LET EVERYONE KNOW WHEN I HEAR ANYTHING.
I’m personally struggling this winter over other things, I feel like my prayers are just hitting the ceiling. I’m angry and disappointed over so many unanswered prayers, tired of waiting for things to get better and now Megan’s diagnois has just seemed to push me over the edge into bitterness. Our Church has been without a Pastor for nearly 3 years, and we only have one person who plays guitar occaisionaly, no piano person, so even our music is not enjoyable at Church. We have a Pastoral Search Committee and they are working hard, we are praying for God’s guidance and wisdom for the right person to be called. We are praying for more music people to come along side us, and here we are months later still no one. My husband has wanted to leave for months and I keep pleading for patience, so the stress on our marriage isn’t good. We are retired due to ill health and struggle with finances. Both of us have bad backs and our pain levels have increased this past fall and winter, which just adds to the ongoing stress. I was up early this past Sat. and had my coffee and devotions and prayer time and came away still feeling dry and empty. On Sunday I withdrew from our Church Library the book Spiritual Depression by D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones as per Dee’s list of books to read for Lent. I’ve read the first chapter and was a little encouraged.
Things are really hard for you right now. I am sorry you are struggling so much. Praying for you, Phyllis.
Phyllis, I’ve been praying for Megan, so I’m so glad to hear from you about her. but I’m so sorry to hear about your ill health and marriage problems and seamingly no answers to prayers. I’ll be praying for you also. Have you gotten to listen to Timothy Keller’s sermon in this weeks study? He talks on suffering and it’s so good…maybe that would be a good one for you to hear. Praying !!
http://sermons2.redeemer.com/sermons/questions-suffering
Here is the free sermon as the link above isn’t working..at least for me.
Oh Phyllis — you are going through a long desert time.
Father, I lift up Phyllis and ask that You would put your arms around her — that she would sense You, even when her church is struggling so and Megan is going through this hard treatment. Comfort her, O Lord.
In Your Name I ask.
I am sorry to know that you are struggling Phyllis, I will pray for you & continue in prayer for Megan, keep us posted.
I wonder why you feel so reluctant to try another church? Perhaps following the lead of your husband would bring an unexpected blessing here?
I don’t like change and can be slow sometimes to let go of something even if it is clear that it is time to.
7. Describe the dream in verses 12 through 17. Find evidences that it was not from God, but from the evil one.
The first part describes the spirit and boy is it a creepy description! It “glides” into the room and makes Eliphaz’s “hair stand on end.” It speaks with a “muffled” voice and is scary. This is a nightmare! God would not be creepy. Maybe a little scary because “boom” there He is, but I don’t think I would be terrified like he describes. God would speak clearly and be a presence, not be sneaky.
The words of the dream challenge Eliphaz. They are negative towards God and make Eliphaz think that God is disappointed in his children. The spirit makes us believe that God doesn’t even know who we are and then we die. These statements are all false. God knows every hair on our heads, He does cheer us on in our lives and He is always with us. We aren’t more righteous or purer than God, but we are made in His image so we must reflect His characteristics, right? Not sure I am on the right path here……
You are doing very well! And we are righteous because we are covered by Him — cleansed, covered — and amazingly, because of it, in His eyes, we are as righteous as Him! If our righteousness depended on our works, as Eliphaz seems to believe, we would be in such trouble.
5. When suffering comes into your life, have you felt tempted to give up on God? Why or why not?
I have suffered with the diagnosis of our son’s Autism and our others sons Aspergers/ADD. Through the years I had times I would intermittently cry out to Him, yet would also back away. Right after we found out I asked God-“But God will He understand the Gospel?!”
This week, I admit I was struggling with a lot of things-our computer crashing, worrying about how it will effect my job in the ministry and also wondering if any of our boys would ever desire God-I intermittently blame myself always! They like our devotionals at home, but it seems more in their heads than heart still, except Isaac. 🙂
Here is how God came to me in the middle of my mild suffering this week. This is so like God: Isaac came into my room the other night and asked if we could talk-he was serious for he was rocking back and forth. He struggles putting his thoughts/words together but he basically told me he is sick of sinning and wants to find his comfort in God and not the things he finds his comfort in like food and games. He said he wants to be like me and Patrick. This happened when I was feeling like a mad woman inside. So God reminded me of what is important: Isaac said, “I want to change..I want to be like you and dad. I want to have friends who believe what I believe. I want to change, I want to change and not be in this rut.” Then he said, “I want to be a good christian like you and dad.” I smiled and confessed we aren’t ‘good Christians’ for we are flawed and our hearts are dark. I told him we are His because he has covered us with His righteousness-I told him not to feel ashamed because he isn’t being punished for his sins, and told him the Bible isn’t a book of rules on how to change and be a ‘good christian’ rather it is the very breath of God meant to draw us into deeper intimacy with Him and as a result He chisels and changes our hearts. We are to yield to Him-Isaac I see His hand on you-shaping you-He loves you so and wants you closer. He then asked if I could help him. My son with Autism is the only one out of all four of my boys who really wants God so far!
Longer story here, but Isaac asked if I would help him by getting in the word with Him. God led me to one of Steve and Dee’s Fisherman study guides-“1, and 2nd Peter Jude-called for a Purpose.” God came to me and loved me showing me He has my son.
Oh Rebecca,
How Isaac’s words must have thrilled your heart! This is so “of-God”…I’m so happy for you, for this breakthrough…praying for your Bible study with Isaac!
Susan, I so love you sister-thanks so so much! 🙂
What a sweet testament of God’s love Susan! This verse came to mind while I was reading your post…Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.” Your love welcomes him into the Kingdom WAY…where the weak become strong, the lame leap, the blind see and the deaf hear, GOD is still in that business! I am certain that great things await your son on this fresh journey of faith!
Sorry, I meant to address my last post to “Rebecca”, read Susan’s name above and typed it in, go figure! 🙂
Oh Rhonda, I read this yesterday but didn’t have time to respond. Your encouragement is refreshing-Isn’t God amazing-amazing love how can it be? 🙂
This is SOOO beautiful, Rebecca. This is so of God. Oh, my! And you did such a wonderful job listening and pointing Isaac to God. You are such a wonderful mother. I will be praying for you both as you pursue God’s Word together. And isn’t it amazing that God worked right at the time that you were so discouraged/”mad”!
Diane, YES..that is amazing-HE is amazing. You know when he said he wanted to change it seemed like he wanted change right now and wanted to just stop sinning for good, and I almost wanted to say-Oh Isaac this is a journey-but I remember when I was a new believer wanting to change right away-and even be like my mentor-right away. So I am learning I need to trust God with that-in time- precept upon precept-line upon line and most likely it will take failing and suffering to grow. 🙂
Oh Rebecca, that is so encouraging! I’m so glad Isaac is coming to you and talking about these things. I’ve been praying for a friend of mine’s son, Josh, who is 20 and autistic, that he would understand the gospel and somehow come to know Christ as his personal Saviour, however he can understand that, I’m not sure. But I know God knows his mind and heart and is able to do what we may think is impossible. He’s such a sweet boy and has a special place in my heart. Yes, I know he’s 20 (21 in June) but I still think of him as a boy. He has the mind of a young child.
Wow, Rebecca. So glad for this encouragement!
And so sorry about your computer crash and me being a zoned out boss on the road when it happened…!
Rebecca–this is GOLD. Thank you for this story of HOPE. Today I reminded myself that all I really want is for my children to love Jesus. They can be as messy, lazy, forgetful as they want…but just LOVE Jesus. And then I reminded myself He wants that even more than I do. Yes, He has our kids.Thank you for this great testimony.
Elizabeth, Oh your heart! What you want, God wants-you are desiring what He desires..love that about you!
I am still amazed at how God has turned my perspective UPSIDE DOWN since being mentored by you, Dee and everyone here on the blog. WHen I first came here I felt a load of guilt thinking what I did or didn’t do would determine the outcome with my children in them walking with God. Whether I sent them to private or public school, whether I forced them to read their Bibles at night and got angry with them when they would lose their Bibles and didn’t take them to church-I think we bought about 5 Bibles per child! I think I desired more for them to ‘walk in truth’ and forgot that the whole reason Jesus went to the cross was so that we would desire Him and walk closely with Him-and He does that work in our hearts! Walking in Truth comes as a result of walking close with Him-He is TRUTH, HE IS OUR HOPE. THIS IS SO FREEING!
Also, I ‘THINK” I am finally on that journey of releasing my children’s hearts to Him knowing whether they want Him or not doesn’t come from how good or how bad of a mom I am. IT may break my heart if they grow up not wanting him though, and I am sure the enemy will come in and lie to me and I will stumble but God only gives him enough rope to hang himself and He is showing me and especially through Isaac that He is the one who molds hearts and saves, and transforms not me. It is so freeing giving up control to God. NOW, if I could just yield to him with the little daily things like a computer crashing! Oh I am thankful He has me. 🙂
Yes yes yes! This is a breakthrough, dear Elizabeth. I remember a few weeks ago reading one of your posts about being concerned your daughter might not become the person in Christ you wanted her to become as she grows up. I felt especially burdened to pray about this for you. This comment is an answer to that prayer. Just let them love you, Lord! Amen.
I hope this reply makes sense. 🙂
So glad to hear about Isaac’s soft heart!
Praying for you, for all of your concerns dear Rebecca.
Chris, I am thankful for you sister!
Sweet boy. Bless him, Lord and answer his hearts desire!
Kim, loved this prayer for Isaac-thanks so much. I have noticed that when you pray God seems to give you discernment of what to focus on in whatever is going on-I might not be saying this right-but He has given you discernment.
I just took a gifts test and thought discernment would be high but it was barely even a gift for me. 🙂 I do try to ask God for help before ever praying for someone so even though it doesn’t appear to be a gift He is helping me to pray what is needed. Thanks for the encouragement. I find it cool how God’s love knits our hearts together cause I love your boys!
Rebecca, I am so happy that Issac’s heart is pressing into Jesus! I think you are such an amazing mom too…the way you can talk to him about the gospel. Kendra is mentally challenged.. and I try my best to help her to understand too. When she’s in her play room and plays children’s sunday school songs and sings along about Jesus…it’s music to my ears and joy to my heart!!
Joyce, Oh this warmed my heart to hear about Kendra! 🙂 Isn’t God amazing how He moves in hearts and gives understanding either through our attempts or even despite them! 🙂
I love this too, Joyce.
Dee – what a refreshing little clip by Matt Chandler! Definitely something we need to hear about more in this day and age where a God is being likened to a vending machine! You slot your money in (ie prayers) and out come the goodies! SOOOOOOOOoooooooo not true! Thank you for sharing! Cheers, Kim
Kim!!! Overjoyed to see you here!
Welcome, Kim from Sydney. Which Sydney is this? somewhere in the US? or in Canada? or perhaps Sydney, Australia? Welcome, in any case.
Welcome Kim!! (Sydney, Nebraska?!)
4. Read Job 3:25-26 and describe the closing of Job’s lament.
I find it intriguing that Job says, “What I feared has come upon me…” I can’t imagine what is must have been like, to live under the sacrificial system, to constantly have to make atonement for your sins. To never feel quite at peace with God. Perhaps this is why Job feared some sort of punishment from God, and he interprets his losses as punishment.
He has no peace, no rest, only inner turmoil.
This reminds me of what has been said of Martin Luther, how he would go to his confessor for hours, trying to recount every sin…but never had any peace…it was driving him mad.
5. Describe the tone in which Eliphaz begins in 1-6. What does Eliphaz tell Job to trust in in verse 6? What is wrong with this?
Eliphaz begins with what sounds like “I’m only trying to help…” He tells Job to trust in his works. This is wrong because it is trying to be your own savior…but what comfort is that when everything goes wrong?
6. How would you answer the question Eliphaz asks in verse 7?
This would make me really angry at Eliphaz and be devastating, because I would think he was implying that all my children died because somehow they deserved to, that they “reaped what they had sown”. And then I would ask him if he was implying that I deserved all this suffering.
7. Describe the dream in verses 12-17. Find evidences that it was not from God, but from the evil one.
The dream is frightening, shadowy, sinister. A spirit glides in front of Eliphaz’s face, making his hair stand on end. Then begins the low whispering accusations…
Satan is the accuser of the brethren – the voice makes accusations against men.
Interesting, in the NIV verse 18 says, “If God places no trust in his servants, if he charges his angels with error” – sounds like Satan is making a jab at God here for finding him guilty when he rebelled.
Satan fuels feelings of despair and hopelessness when he says that we are here today and gone tomorrow and no one even notices, no one even cares (how that must have hurt Job to hear these words as he grieved over his children).
These words are hateful and mean and meant to sink us into a pit of despair.
8. What question does this “spirit” ask in verse 17?
How can a man be made righteous and pure before God? Implication – forget it; you’re too bad to have any hope. God is going to “get you”.
9. When suffering has come into your life, have you hated yourself or God? Why or why not?
I have been mad at God, but I haven’t hated God. I’ve hated myself for failing to do more, for failing to do the right thing, for not praying more, for not being a better example, for doing the wrong thing. It’s because I have believed that if I had done everything right and been a better Christian, the outcome would have been different or even prevented.
The character flaws I observe in my children or their failing to follow God – I trace it back to my own mothering-what I didn’t do right.
Susan–when I read your words on #9 “The character flaws I observe in my children or their failing to follow God – I trace it back to my own mothering-what I didn’t do right.”, I am able to apply the Gospel to your thoughts and know that they are lies from the enemy! But then I realize how identical they are to my own beliefs about my own life, and know I must apply that same truth to myself. Thank you for this.
Susan, remember how Dee said (above at the beginning) she felt so much quilt when Steve passed away for things she did or did not do? I do that to myself too. Dee said…”I was arrested when Keller said: When a believer suffers, it is NEVER because God is punishing Him. Jesus took that at the cross. I knew it was true and my soul found rest.” This comforted me a lot (Thank you, Dee) and I hope it comforts you too.
I have listened to Chris Swan’s video again and again. I haven’t responded until now because I was trying to think of words magnificent enough to describe its impact on me. This is unusual for me –words fail me!! 🙂 I think it had to have taken soooo much courage and soooo much honesty to make that video, but it was worth it, Chris! It is such a wonderful testimony, and it means so much coming out of suffering as great as yours. You will never know how many people you have helped with it. I was particularly touched by your talking about your “becoming small and trusting God. ” Also where you said you were a lot less sure of yourself and a lot more sure of your savior.
How did the Gospel help Chris? I find evidence in her statement that she is looking forward to heaven. She states that she is trusting on “the promises” of Jesus. I think she rejected both the younger brother and the older brother by treasuring her connection with God every day, and by not demanding things of God now, but being content to wait until it is time in the next life for explanations. She has learned not to think of herself as the center of the universe, but is willing to be small and trusting. She knows of God’s great love for her. Job sets the model for suffering. Chris expresses no anger toward God, as Job also didn’t do. I have heard that anger is one of the necessary steps in grieving. However, the anger can also be turned toward self as well as God (guilt). I am so proud of Chris. However, even as well as Chris is adjusting, I think she still needs all of our prayers! I suspect God isn’t finished with her yet.
I love your response to Chris, Deanna.
Thank you Deanna, you are very insightful. There are parts of my grief that remain unvisited I think. I hope I don’t appear too well adjusted, those who have been on here the whole time I have been have seen some of the mess that I am when I try to make it on my own.
I hope that it is clear that my hope and any strength I have come from Christ. I know my self. I am frightfully selfish and lazy in my flesh.
Chris, you are so humble and sweet….I’m still praying for you and your family.
Joyce you are the sweet one!
Your prayers are precious to me.
This is a test from Sherrie
Wow — it’s working! I didn’t know people could write comments using the app! Hurrah.
4. Do you agree with Keller that Job’s wife (see Job 2:9) represents the younger brother approach? Why or why not?
I see it. The Father stopped giving them things and, in fact, took them away drastically and she lost her love for Him. She wants to strike out on her own out from under His thumb.
5. When suffering comes into your life, have you felt tempted to give up on God? Why or why not?
Yes and no. I get impatient. Things aren’t being fixed as quickly as I want them to be. (I’m realizing I do actually struggle with that pesky control idol in a very obnoxious way…I am a very go with the flow person, things don’t need to go my way all the time, but whenever anything is wrong in anyone’s life I HAVE to fix it…*Sigh*) I get angry, didn’t God hear me pouring out my heart?? But I always end up on my face again, because I know the outcome when I strike out on my own. God’s timeline is WAY better than mine.
Liz–your answer to #5 made me smile–with great empathy and understanding! I 100% relate 🙂
Going through my many trials has brought me closer to God each time! And I see here so many going through hard times right now! I pray for all in the trials/suffering and that the light at the end will shine for you! I know it may not bring comfort at this point but we are called to find JOY in ALL things….praying
The song, “This is the day that The Lord has made..mama and I sang this a lot before she died…after, I sang it with tears streaming down for a long time and still do. It reminds me that everyday is a gift from God for all of us….
So good to see you here CL — not many from Gashland seem to be participating. Maybe they are silently, but this cheers me.
4. Do you agree with Keller that Job’s wife (see Job 2:9) represents the younger brother approach? Why or why not?
I’m not one to argue Keller, but I think I tend to see more of the older brother. I see in her an expectation that Job deserves better, that God is the One responsible for his suffering, and he should be angry at God for it. She says “Curse God and die”—it’s not that she believes cursing God will give Job life someone else (like the younger brother thought), she is just angry with God and believes Job should be too. She screams “this isn’t fair! We deserve better!” –just my opinion 🙂
That’s very insightful. And truly, both the younger and the older “give up” on the Father, so we shouldn’t just say that is the younger brother reaction.
Dee and Elizabeth, I have been asking myself this since yesterday-not sure but when I run to my idols is that a form of temporarily giving up on God? I don’t ever desire to-I hate the thought, but I know I can respond like an older and younger brother sometimes-yet He has me. What do you think?
I agree with Dee, Elizabeth – this is insightful to see the older brother characteristics in Job’s wife, her anger because she expects that Job deserved better than this (maybe b/c he always followed the rules).
5. When suffering comes into your life, have you felt tempted to give up on God? Why or why not?
I honestly don’t feel like I am tempted to give up on God. No matter how confused, hurt, even angry I feel—the thought of ‘cursing God’ is far too frightening to me. In the midst of bad suffering, I have felt very alone. I have longed for Him to take me home at times, but I have never wanted to be without Him—no, far too frightening.
Yes, yes, yes.
4. Read Job 3:25-26 and describe the closing of Job’s lament.
Job’s nightmare has come true. His worst fears realized. He is in a state on continual turmoil, lost in the turbulence of a fierce stormy sea.
5. Describe the tone in which Eliphaz begins in 1-6. What does Eliphaz tell Job to trust in in verse 6? What is wrong with this?
He tells him to trust in his righteous good deeds; but we cannot save ourselves. No one is righteous enough, not even Job. Job falls short and in need of a Savior.
6. How would you answer the question Eliphaz asks in verse 7?
Yes, Jesus Christ, a “ truly innocent” One, “ended up on the scrap heap”.
7. Describe the dream in verses 12 through 17. Find evidences that it was not from God, but from the evil one.
It was frightening, dreadful—God is not a God of fear. I love Steve’s dream. Such a vivid picture of how the enemy tries to attack, but the Power of the Lord will save us.
8. What question does this “spirit” ask in verse 17?
“‘How can mere mortals be more righteous than God?
9. When suffering has come into your life, have you hated yourself or God? Why or why not?
I have never hated God. I have never doubted He is good. I have felt forgotten and I have blamed myself for the trials, often. I have always been one with a heavy conscience—I want to know when I’ve done wrong, and I want to make things right, so I think many times I fear something is my own fault.
But as He has taught me more about His grace, and His deep love for me, I trust He knows my heart and knows how to speak to me when I need to see my sin or fault.
I do struggle too with the why of suffering. I remind myself it can’t be that He doesn’t love me, He proved that one! And It can’t be punishment—He also took care of that! And I may not know the why—Job didn’t either, there is comfort in that. I also may not know when or if the trial or end. All I can know is Who He is, and He is good. And oh how great His love is for me. I have to replay these truths over and over as the enemy tries to attack my thoughts. He is greater. His love is greater.
Elizabeth I track right along with your answer to 9, how has your pain been lately?
I have been wondering that, too Elizabeth.
thank you both–I’m late for work and want to get back here to catch up comments and especially write on Chris–but wanted to quickly thank you and say that I am actually feeling a lot better–especially the last 6 days have been much milder and I feel hopeful and without dread…thank you so much for your care.
Joyce–how about you?
I’m doing okay…good and bad days…thanks for asking…praying for you!
Elizabeth, I see you like Job in the painting-sitting in the light with your hands up not doubting God’s goodness but struggling with understanding why.
Just wanted to share an funny Isaac update: So Isaac and me started the study in Dee and Steve’s “1st and 2nd Peter Jude-called for a purpose” after school today.
We got to question 3. (Matthew 4:19-“Follow me he told them and I will make you fish for people.” HCSB)
The question was: “For what purpose did Jesus call Peter?”
Isaac said, “To follow Jesus first and then Jesus will get fish for them.” 😉 He took the fishing part literally..I wanted to laugh but held back. So, I explained it to him and he said a huge “OH! I get it”. He is so sweet. 🙂
OH REBECCA–covered with goosebumps! LOVE how you love your kids–such a Christ-likeness, so thankful for your example. Sweet Isaac.
That is so cute, Rebecca!
🙂
I hope you write that down and save it!
Listened to Keller sermon…So good to be reminded that Job did not know what was going on in the spiritual realm…Only God spoke to Him stating Who God Was not why He allowed this…This was a great sermon. We have to be okay not knowing the why because we trust the WHO! Great reminder…
Good stuff.
1. What stood out to you from the above, and why?
“The gospel approach may mean struggling, yet inevitably surrendering, for we know God is our only hope, and we know God is good.”
When I suffer (either as an elder or younger brother)where else can I go? God is the only safe place, even when He doesn’t “feel” safe. As Peter said when asked by Jesus if the disciples would leave him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have (the) words of eternal life.”(John 6:68)
2. Reflect on Segher’s painting – tell us what you see.
Job’s comforters seem aloof; analytical. Job’s wife appears to be angry and emotional. Job himself although aware of them, seems apart – his hands are turned up in appeal to God. The light is concentrated on him, as though God has singled him out.
3. How do you tend to respond to suffering?
Usually with the older brother “I should have done better” approach. In my deepest heart, I know that this diminishes the cross, but it is my default mode.
Our network finally cooperated today – it likes to boot me off in the morning or evening so I’m learning to work with it. Sorry to say that I haven’t been able to watch the Matt Chandler video yet, or Chris’s testimony. My heart goes out to Chris and others on the blog who have been through such deep waters. May God bring healing and comfort to each one.
Such good answers. Welcome back to the internet world — you were missed!
10. According to Job 14:15, what will God one day do for each of His children and why?
Back in Job 9:15, Job says “Though I am in the right, I cannot answer him”, but now in 14:15, Job says that God will call to him and he will be able to answer. God will LONG for His creation—I absolutely love that verse. Job is given the hope of New Life, of the Resurrection!
11. According to Job 14:16-17, what will God do with our sin?
He will forgive our sin, seal and cover it up. He will not keep track of our sin. I like the Message here “My sins will be stuffed in a sack and thrown into the sea—sunk in deep ocean.”
12. Describe God’s words to Job’s friends in Job 42:7-9. What does this tell you?
It tells me that God takes very seriously what we say about Who He is. He hates false teaching. It also tells me He will correct false teachers. Job’s friends spoke lies to him about God. They judged Job and assumed his suffering was punishment, due to his sin. This angers God. It jumped out to me that repeatedly God refers to Job as his servant, but not the others. He tells them to take 7 bulls and 7 rams and go to Job, and offer them as a burnt offering sacrifice.
5. I am often tempted to give up on this world…on people, on myself, but I don’t think im tempted to give up on God….christianise, perhaps….. church, some days…..being “good”…yep, but not God, HE is often my only hope. If I gave up one him I would really be up a creek with no paddle!
I often wonder why HE chooses not to give up on me, wonder why he pursues me so relentlessly when I am such a cry baby.
I yell at HIM when things don’t go my way, I look up to the sky and shake my fist and say “really, you think that’s funny?” when I spill a gallon of milk, or get stuck behind a train….I get weary and depressed when I am sick for 2 weeks.
I question HIM when young friends get cancer and leave their families shattered by their loss, when baby’s die, when good men lose their jobs and lose hope.
but at the end of the day HE is all I really have, HIS love is all that keeps me going so unless HE gives up on me, I will not give up on HIM.
But I will wonder what the heck HE is thinking!
Loved that Cyndi….how are your friends doing after the fire?
When suffering has come into your life, have you hated yourself or God?
When I taped the video, my friend Jill was the only one in the room with me, she asked me if I did think what happened was discipline and if yes, why.
I answered that I am not sure. I am not prepared to say it wasn’t, I certainly had sin in my life that I was too casual about. There was a lot of ‘chasing after the wind’ in me, but my natural bent of focusing that much on me, I sensed, was a wrong response.
I just don’t know, but if I believe that He loves me, that He really is working things together for good, if I am rooted and grounded in love, it doesn’t matter why it came, or at least I don’t have to figure it out. If any part of it was discipline, then my work is too submit and be trained by it. If I am to understand it, I trust He will make it plain to me.
I have been thinking about the TK sermon where He brings out that all sin is against God, by Jesus forgiving sin He was claiming to be deity and that all sin is against Him. This is such a comfort to me. If someone sins against Dee and I come over and say I forgive them it would make no sense, their sin was against Dee, not me. When Jesus forgives sin He is saying all sin is against Him.
This is sinking into my heart in a new and comforting way.A week or two ago when Krista was struggling with why God allows awful things to happen and we discussed it a bit, to think that all the sin we are troubled by is actually against Christ…that child abuse, oppression, the injustice Daniel suffered was against Christ, that does change my heart, it means that the appropriate action belongs to Him, forgiveness and salvation or vengeance and judgement belong to God.
I can trust Him to show me if I have a role to play in His plans, I can relax.
Romans 5 talks about the end result of suffering being Hope, I do feel the truth of this. I have let go of hoping in much of what is temporal and unsure. My hope is fixed more that I ever imagined it could be on what is unshakeable.
Nothing thats eternal has been taken from me or my family, I am so grateful that we have evidence that Daniels faith was real, I know he is at peace, someday I will be too.
1 Peter 1:3-5
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.
Chris,
I love how you explain the fact that “all the sin we are troubled by is actually against Christ”…I knew that, but somehow your explaining it makes it seem really personal and real, and then that “the appropriate action belongs to Him…”
This is all so profound, Chris. Thanks for sharing. I especially like this part:
“Romans 5 talks about the end result of suffering being Hope, I do feel the truth of this. I have let go of hoping in much of what is temporal and unsure. My hope is fixed more that I ever imagined it could be on what is unshakeable. Nothing that’s eternal has been taken from me or my family,”
It makes me examine myself. Do I have hope? What is my hope in? Is it in Christ or in something of earth which may or may not happen? Right now, I desperately want a positive outcome for Krista and the children. But is that the basis of my hope, or my hope in God who works everything out “for the good of those who love Him” no matter what happens?
Diane, I think God is our only hope and I hope he blesses Krista and the boys so much,through all this pain.
Such good thoughts Chris…you get me to really thinking about it all too:) Bless you
4. Read Job 3:25-26 and describe the closing of Job’s lament.
Job’s fears have been realized-We all fear loss of a loved one, our children, husbands etc..and fear losing our sustenance. Job lost all of it. He is in turmoil, probably like a madman inside with no peace, no rest and oh understandably so! Satan was pounding him with condemnation on top of it all and He didn’t have anyone who would comfort him. I can’t help but reflect back on the painting above and it breaks my heart for Job.
5. Describe the tone in which Eliphaz begins in 1-6. What does Eliphaz tell Job to trust in in verse 6? What is wrong with this?
The tone is slithery-snakey..Eliphaz starts off appealing to Job’s record of righteousness which would make Job perk up and listen and then goes into encouraging him to trust in works-salvation!
6. How would you answer the question Eliphaz asks in verse 7?
Yes, and Yes! Jesus came and everything is turned upside down because He was turned upside down for us. He came to be-rid us of the notion that we can save ourselves by being good. Keller said, “The way up is down, the way to live is to die to yourself..” Jesus is Holy and is God and he experienced being stripped of everything-even being cut off from God on the cross but Oh in the end He was exalted to the top-look at how Job in the end was exalted but it wasn’t because of his works or his righteousness but because of God’s righteousness and Job yielded to God-Job had that soft pliable heart. Most of the Disciples ended up in a heap and died martyrs deaths. Because of the fall all of us will suffer including the upright-and I will go out on a limb and say suffering can help us die to ourselves-and bring us deeper into intimacy with God.
7. Describe the dream in verses 12 through 17. Find evidences that it was not from God, but from the evil one.
First of all it made him feel dread and terror. Secondly there is hopelessness and despair and it portrays God as aloof-not caring as if he doesn’t care what happens to us-That is not true of God as He gave up everything to save us-He is our Hope. A huge hint this is from the evil one also is how backwards it is-God not trusting His servants and not cheering His Angels-satan became full of pride and covetousness was cast out for wanting to be like God.
8. What question does this “spirit” ask in verse 17?
How can mortals be more righteous and humans purer than their creator?
9. When suffering has come into your life, have you hated yourself or God? Why or why not?
When suffering comes into my life-I blame myself. Even if it isn’t my fault I believe the lies and blame myself-it can drive my poor husband crazy. :/ I also can get angry and frustrated and ask God why but I haven’t ever hated God. I have to agree with Elizabeth’s post that because of Him (not me) giving me a heart to pursue Him I can’t hate Him or give up on Him. It isn’t me that compels me to desire Him-it is Him who compels me.
Love how you are getting Job.
I just found out that if you download my app that you can respond to this blog on your phone easily — or ipad — you probably all knew that, but my publisher just helped me find out it is true. You click on the connect tab.
Last night I was perusing your app on my phone and I discovered the same thing! I thought it was pretty awesome!
I can’t find the app on the website. Where do I go?
Got it, nevermind…..
I use my phone all the time but didn’t know you had an app! You are so “hip” Dee 🙂 I will try it out.
10. According to Job 14:15, what will God one day do for each of His children and why?
God will call His children home, because He longs for us, the work of His hands. He really wants to spend eternity with us.
11. According to Job 14:16-17, what will God do with our sin?
It will be as “sealed up in a bag”. Forever removed from us, not to be taken out and gone over again.
12. Describe God’s words to Job’s friends in Job 42:7-9. What does this tell you?
God calls them out for the way they spoke about Him to Job-He is angry with them for misrepresenting His character, for making claims that they knew why Job was suffering. God said, “You have not spoken of Me what is right.” They are to ask Job to pray and make sacrifices for them so that God will not bring His discipline upon them.
This tells me that it is very serious in God’s eyes to use God as a means to drive the knife in deeper in one who is suffering, saying that we know what God was thinking and doing by allowing the suffering. In doing this we can cause great harm to someone who is not as strong as Job – we can cause them to doubt God’s love for them and waver in their faith.
Susan, your answer to number 12 is awesome…I sure wouldn’t want to be one to cause anyone to doubt God’s love for them.
Yes, Susan, as Joyce said, number 12 is very profound, really makes me think about how quickly we judge others and think we have the answer for them.
How would you answer the question Eliphaz asks in verse 7?
Has a truly innocent person ever ended up on the scrap heap?
My understanding is that because of what happened in the Garden of Eden, there are no truly innocent persons. “We all have sinned and come short of the glory of God”! In that instance we began to live in a sin cursed world. Thus, “it rains on the just and the unjust”. This life isn’t about “deserve” if it were, none of us would have a leg to stand upon. Eliphaz, what you are teaching is a health and wealth gospel. “Do good, get good”…”Do bad, get bad”! God does not work like that! He is bigger than any human reasoning. “His ways are NOT our ways, His thoughts are NOT our thoughts”, if He should choose to bless a beggar then He is right! If He should choose to bring down Kings, He is right! I think about Matthew 20 (I know Eliphaz would have been a bit puzzled by these references! But work with me here! HA! ) where Jesus describes the hired vineyard workers, the ones hired in the morning who agreed upon their given salary and then those hired in the evening who were paid the same. He is totally OTHER in His thinking. We cannot package His ways and fashion them to make sense to our human mind! The fact is, God is good and He is for us, that is the truth regardless of what I see at this moment. The life of the Kingdom is about the “unseen”, if we live only by what our eyes can see then we will never rise above in this world! Our life is Christ and His Kingdom is operating among us (here and now) in ways that we cannot understand (especially with our earthly reasoning), faith is the fuel for rising above in this broken world. Job sums it up nicely in Chapter 19, “For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth.”
FAITH IN WHAT HE CAN’T SEE!
Yes! Great post. He IS right – love this, Rhonda.
It is a health and wealth gospel — didn’t see that!
AMEN!
So good, Rhonda “This life isn’t about “deserve” if it were, none of us would have a leg to stand upon”. Reminds me of how Keller says God is unfair, in OUR favor.
12. How does the gospel help Chris face her suffering? How did she reject both the younger and older brother approach? How did the book of Job help her?
I’ve seen Chris’ testimony before, but it continues to move me every time. What I see in Chris as she speaks is not someone who has crossed the river of grief, has it all wrapped-up in a tidy bundle, and speaks now, looking back. No. I can still see the pain on her face and hear it in her voice – she is still walking through her grief, still leaning on her Savior. The gospel – I hear Chris describe how she has laid the burden of somehow carrying her own sins down, and she is plumbing the depths of God’s love for her; her trust is in the One who died for her, and she has a living hope that this world is not all there is, that heaven is real and things will be restored. She rejects being the younger/older brother because she wants God for Himself – in her suffering she is reaching out for Him and allowing Him to draw her ever nearer. She is holding onto Him tightly.
Job helps Chris let go of the having to know “why” – Job didn’t know the reason for his suffering, and Chris chooses to trust and believe that God is good in all His ways.
I agree with every word that Deanna posted above about Chris’ testimony. And many who are hurting so badly will find comfort in Chris’ words because they know she has been and is where they are. I admire you, Chris…it must’ve been so hard for you to do this, yet you are reaching out to help others in your pain.
Thank you Susan truly.
Have you heard from Adam?
Texted him this morning – they were at Waffle House eating. I went to the spring break in Panama City 2013 website…probably shouldn’t have looked…but I have to trust God with him, and Adam knows what is right.
Praying for Adam, Susan
Thanks Joyce and Chris! He’ll be home tomorrow, and my husband’s aunt and uncle are taking him out to breakfast today (they have a home in the area).
great answer to prayer, Susan!
PLEASE PRAY FOR ME, I AM STRUGGLING. IM HAVING A VERY HARD TIME WITH THIS TRANSITION IN LIFE. SENDING ABBY TO COLLEGE, SENDING MY KIDS TO SCHOOL…FEELING LIKE RIGHT NOW THEY NEED THE MONEY I CAN MAKE MORE THEN THEY NEED ME. I FEEL LIKE IM NOT SURE WHO I AM OR WHAT I AM SUPPOSED TO BE DOING. ALL I HAVE EVER IDENTIFIED MYSELF AS IS A STAY AT HOME/HOMESCHOOL MOM. MY HORMONES ARE CRAZY, I HAVE BEEN SICK FOR MOST OF THE WINTER…IM HAVING A MIDLIFE CRISIS 🙂 WITH NO MONEY TO BUY A CUTE RED CONVERTABLE AND NO TIME OR ENERGY TO EVEN WANT TO HAVE AN AFFAIR.
THIS IS REALLY HARD FOR ME TO ADMIT….I DONT SEEM TO KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS ONE EXCEPT TO CLING TO GOD WITH BOTH HANDS AND TRUST THAT HE HAS ME IN HIS STRONG ARMS.
SO WITH TEARS STREAMING DOWN MY FACE I AM GOING TO ACTUALLY SEND THIS ONE THIS TIME 🙂
Dear Father we lift up our sister Cyndi, please give her such a sense of her identity as your daughter, a clear vision of her worth in your eyes a sense of your love that no earthly thing can shake. We lift up her physical needs and ask that you give her good heath and insight as to what is best here for her hormonal needs. We ask that she can relax in the knowledge that her time and affection with these children you have blessed her with has been well spent, deliver her from believing the lies of the enemy.
In Jesus Name Amen
Oh Cyndi I know how hard it is to push ‘Submit Comment’ when you are feeling overwhelmed, thank you for reaching out, we do love you so here!
Thank you for Cyndi, Lord. Thank you that you have her in the palm of your hand and you are enough. I pray that you will continue to guide her thoughts to truth today. Speak peace and calm into her situation. Amen.
Cyndi, you are dearly loved and prayed for. Rest under His wing. Good that you are speaking truth to your soul. He does indeed have you right where He wants you… Love to you, sister.
Father,
I too want to pray for Cyndi. Thank you for her honesty and for the fact that she is reaching out and asking for prayer. I believe that speaks to her faith and belief in You and in Your ability to help her in this season of difficulty. I pray that You will strengthen her body, her mind, her spirit by the power of the Holy Spirit. I pray that she will feel Your tangible love for her through the necessary provisions. I pray that You will remind her that her tears are precious in Your sight and that You are present with her in this pain. Strengthen her and give her a mental reprieve, allow her enough light in this season of darkness to be able to move towards YOU! Thank You for her courage and for her willingness to ask…bless her in these steps of faith! For it is in the Strong and healing Name of Jesus that I pray…AMEN!
Oh MY I am overwhelmed by your love and prayers and understanding! thank you so very much. I think I have just needed to let myself cry, to admit that even thought I have no big crisis or bad thing going on in my life Im feeling really sad.
you are all so kind to pray for me and to care even though its not like I have lost a child or a house or a marriage….I feel so petty asking for prayer just because I cant figure out who I am 🙂
thank you sisters for loving me….for being Jesus to me! As I read your prayers the tears came and came and came. thank you, I feel held.
Cyndi,
I can so identify with your feelings of sadness, and struggling with not feeling sure of who you are or what you’re supposed to be doing…I’m right there with you and it is hard to readjust to kids leaving for college, and then you have homeschooled all these years, and then your kids going to school…praying for you…may He meet you in your sadness and confusion…even today in a surprising, unexpected way. We’re all here for you, too!
Dear Cyndi, Your post broke my heart! I am so sorry you are feeling so down! You say you don’t have the answer, but the one you gave sounded pretty good — holding onto God with both hands! Good plan! The stage of life you are going through is one that has troubled a lot of mothers. You are certainly not alone. Your children do need their mother — even when it doesn’t seem so evident. You don’t hear grown adults reminisce saying, “I didn’t have any money back then,” but you do hear them say, “I didn’t have a mother when I needed her.” My girls must have been late-bloomers, because they seemed to have more serious problems when they were in college than when they were in high school. Hang in there, Girl! You just went to the top of my prayer list!
Amen to all the prayers for you, cyndi. Hugs to you! I know how hard it is to admit that you are struggling. I will be praying. Transitions are very difficult. Your kids may seem to think that they need your money more than they need you, but believe me, they do need you and WILL need you. You are NOT losing your kids. As you say, Cling to God with both hands.
Cyndi, reading your post brought tears to me too and am praying each sister’s prayer’s for you also.
I remember about 10 years ago, I was doing daycare during the day and in the evenings I was caring for a 95 year old lady, across the street from us. This lady had a very sharp mind, but her body was giving out. She had 4 kids in different states and were around 70’ish ages.
I was going through empty nest syndrome and missing my kids so bad. Both Kendra’s older siblings were in California then, near their dad. I thought by the time I was as old as this lady, I sure would be over missing my kids. But this sweet lady sure did miss her kids…everyday. I mean her kids had grandkids and great grandkids, but they were still her babies! In a mother’s eye’s they always will be!
As the kids age, they do care about their parents more and more. This is what I observed with that lady. Her kids called and wrote letters and sent things and visited a lot. They took care of their mother so well and I can see my kids doing that more also now. They will miss you so much and need lots of advice and prayers and long talks…especially your daughter’s….but my son is very attached to me too, even tho he tries to act like he’s not! They are always going to need their mamma…no matter what age they are. You’re in my prayers Cyndi…love you!
Joyce, your sweet, tender heart comforts me “They are always going to need their mamma…no matter what age they are.”
Dear Cyndi, our pastor likes to say that God doesn’t measure our pain on a scale or compare it with the pain of others. He meets us right where we are, with compassion. May God greatly comfort and encourage you. <3
4. Do you agree with Keller that Job’s wife (see Job 2:9) represents the younger brother approach? Why or why not?
First, I love Job’s response: Job 2:10 “You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?” In all this, Job did not sin in what he said. Job understood what I have yet to fully grasp and Dee’s sister understood when she presented the gospel to Dee. Suffering may come.
I agree with Dr. Keller that the younger brother’s attitude is a “give me” attitude like that of an immature person or child, demanding his way.
5. When suffering comes into your life, have you felt tempted to give up on God? Why or why not?
I have searched for truth regarding suffering when friends told me believers have scriptural rights to demand healing – He took ALL of our suffering on the cross therefore we do not have to put up with it. I am seeing the truth in the gospel and am thankful because it is better to trust God that He is there with me through pain than demand He stop the pain. I always wondered why scripture would tell us to take up our cross if He took our suffering and didn’t want us to suffer.
Loved your answer to number 5, Kim!
I am experiencing a couple of technological issues related to this blog. One is that I tried to use the Gravatar site to get my photo in, but it was a great debaucle! I was actually relieved this morning to see the gray-and-white icon was still there, because I was afraid of what kind of mess I might have made. I tried to back out of it, and evidently I did part-way.
The second issue I am having is with Keller’s sermon. Up to this point, I have been able to listen to his sermons for free. Today I find I am only given the option of purchasing. I am wondering if I am missing a clue here! I have been listening to the sermons on my computer (not an MP3). I would welcome advice!
Deanna, try this
http://sermons2.redeemer.com/sermons/questions-suffering
Dawn, Thank you! Thank you! The link worked wonderfully. I was able to listen to the sermon.
Joyce found it first 🙂
Deanna, your computer will probably play MP3 format. Try it.
Finished the study last night and listened to Keller this morning. My gem and take-away from this week: When suffering comes; I feel alone and abandoned. Early in our infertility journey, I struggled with feeling like I deserved this or that God was punishing me. I now see that I displaced my anger towards God at other people. Healing came when I recognized the Jesus suffered, too. Oh, how He suffered for our sins on that cross. He knew the depth of my pain and loved me. I also came to see purpose in our suffering and also saw that it wasn’t punishment.
Learned from studying Job 42:7-9 that God rebuked Job’s friends asking them to repent to Job. God also showed Job’s friends mercy and unconditional love by not punishing them for their foolish talk.
I’m also reading Grace Based Parenting. Out of all the parenting books I’ve devoured lately – this is by far the best and the gem in the bunch! I’ve finished the first 3 chapters. A few notes I’ve made from this are:
– Truth and Mercy Go together. Truth (rules) without mercy leads to rebellion. Mercy (grace) without truth cheapens grace.
– “If God our heavenly Father is the perfect Father, and the primary way that He deals with us as humans is through the power of His grace, it stands to reason that grace forms the best template for bringing out the best in our own children.”
I’ll share more later as I work through the book.
“Healing came when I realized Jesus suffered too”
I listened to the serman 3 times…it was so good!
Wow Joyce — you are on board with Keller now!!!!
I am hooked on him for sure, Dee!!
This is good Cherie “the primary way that He deals with us as humans is through the power of His grace”
Notes on Keller’s sermon on Suffering: (1) Avoid pat answers, (2) embrace living without an answer, and (3) anticipate the final answer. There are two basic responses to suffering: (1) Moralism — You must not be living a good enough life. (2) Cynicism — suffering is random. “Life is a crap shoot.” Cynicism is based on the idea that no one is in charge.
Satan generates suffering; God does not. Disease and death are not made by God. Mankind unleashed these evil forces when we disobeyed. God is totally in charge — he permits evil but limits it. God only gives Satan enough rope to hang himself. Satan ends up accomplishing the opposite of what he wants.
Crying out and grieving is permissible by God. If you build your life on your things and your accomplishments, your suffering will make you feel worse and worse. If you build your life on God’s love, then suffering drives you deeper into the source of your joy.
In the Garden, Satan lied to us, telling us that God does not love us. We feel we need proof of God’s love for us — and we have that proof in the Gospel!
4. Do you agree with Keller that Job’s wife (see Job 2:9) represents the younger brother approach? Why or why not?
I hadn’t thought (similar to others) as Job’s wife as the “younger “brother approach, but…the younger brother cares little of his father and only looks to his own desires which would be similar to Job’s wife…his interest is self-centerd as is her’s (she wants life to go back to “normal” regardless of what Job must do, even cursing God).
5. When suffering comes into your life, have you felt tempted to give up on God? Why or why not?
I don’t think so, but my suffering has not been to extreme of others; I pray that my faith would stay true to the Lord should suffering in the extreme come my way.
4. Read Job 3:25-26 and describe the closing of Job’s lament.
Job is destitute; his worst fears have come to pass…he has no peace in his life.
5. What does Eliphaz tell Job to trust in in verse 6? What is wrong with this?
Eliphaz tells Job to trust in Job’s devout life…this is wrong because we can NEVER be devout (good) enough…we will always miss the mark.
6. How would you answer the question Eliphaz asks in verse 7?
I would say it is dependent upon whether the “scrap heap” references this world or our eternal home. If the former, I would say yes, “good” people most definitely will experience excruciating challenges that seem like a “scrap heap”…the brutality and pain of the flogging and cross had to be a garbage dump for Jesus. Eternally speaking, no…our eternal home is with the Lord where there will be love and no pain or suffering.
7. Describe the dream in verses 12 through 17. Find evidences that it was not from God, but from the evil one.
“scary”…”dread”…”terror” all equal FEAR…1 John 4:18 tells me: There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
Additional for 7.: God is not fear as depicted in this text…God may provide discipline and guidance but it isn’t provided in a terrifying, dreadful, dark manner of this text.
Good!
Listen to this sermon and share your notes
Well I wept of course. What words of wisdom. I never really understood Job before. I like all individuals have suffered in this lifetime. Some less and some more but we have all suffered.
I cannot get over God’s grace or His love. For me, for family, for others. How good God is.
I cannot really get over that I am forgiven or that I am loved by the Lord who created the universe.
I accept it of course but I marvel at it. It makes me weep. I am a crier but God loves me anyhow.
When I first had my girls I understood a little bit of love. I marvelled that they loved me. I marvel at them. Sometimes they leave me speechless.
I think God allows me to cry for all those tears that I used to try to stuff back into my eyes, the tears I was not allowed to cry or was made to feel ashamed of, when I was a little girl.
Sometimes all I can do is crawl over to God’s lap and loving embrace and huddle there.
I am so glad when Pastor Keller spoke he gave permission for people to cry. To express their darkness of their souls b/c w/o crying, pressing into God’s word.
Singing outloud that I’ve been redeemed by the blood of the lamb. Filled with the Holy Ghost I am. All my sins are washed away and I’ve been redeemed.
I would not make it through this day.
All my pain and suffering he understood.
All I had to offer Him was brokeness and strife and He made something beautiful of my life.
I can rejoice now, I can sing, I can dance, I can laugh, b/c of the freedom of God’s love.
I long for Heaven.
I know that all my days are written in the Lamb’s book of life. That before even one sentence is uttered from my lips God knows it.
I thank God for His love, for the love of my daughters, for the love of the saints, for the love of my husband.
I was thinking the first time I was saved it was just before Easter in 1984 and now when I finish up Lent of 2013 it will be just in time for Easter. God is so good. He can redeem, restore, reconcile, fill the empty spaces in my soul, my heart with His righteousness. None of my own. Only God’s righteousness.
But mostly my heart justs sings today.
I’ve been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.
Filled with the Holy Ghost I am.
All my sins are washed away
I’ve been redeemed.
I am loved! I guess that is what I am taking out of this whole study of Lent!
I am loved! And I marvel at that!
Thank u for your prayers
Susan thank u for the link to the sermon.
For some reason I cannot get it but with your help I was so thank u:)
My brother e-mailed me today. I e-mailed him (when someone was sharing on how close they were to their brother). I left home when Dirk was 12 years of age. I was only 15 years.
God is good.
Yesterday when I was travelling with my husband. We go away one/two days per week (b/c of his job) I was singing. You and me brother in His hands. You and me brother in His hands. He has the whole world in His hands. Even my brother.
God bless u all
Your eternal sister in the Lord
Mellany
Love your post, Mellany! I think proper credit for the sermon link is due to Dawn and Joyce also posted a link. Your joy is so radiant…I love your take-away from this entire Lenten study – “I am loved”!
“Sometimes all I can do is crawl over to God’s lap and loving embrace and huddle there”…loved that and all of your post, Mellany.
thank you to all of you that prayed for me today! I feel so much better! I cried for an hour and then my mom came over and we went shopping with all the girls and then I helped my friend go through her burned house….I think I just needed to admit that I was struggling and LET myself be sad for a bit! And I know all your prayers were SO answered cuz I am feeling MUCH better:-)
Hurrah!
12. Describe God’s words to Job’s friends in Job 42:7-9.
God is angry with Job’s friends for speaking untruths of Him.
What does this tell you?
God wants my heartfelt belief in His goodness, justice, love, and mercy, not half-cocked human perceptions and half-truths.
10. According to Job 14:15, what will God one day do for each of His children and why?
He will call for us because He will long for the creature he has made.
11. According to Job 14:16-17, what will God do with our sin?
Cover it up.
12. Describe God’s words to Job’s friends in Job 42:7-9. What does this tell you?
He was mad at them and told them to go to Job and ask forgiveness with a sacrifice. He said that Job would pray for them and then God would accept Jobs prayer for the friends.
It tells me that Job held a high position with God. It also tells me that God is forgiving.
I just read something in A.W. Tozers book that is making me think. He says,” A satisfactory spiritual life will begin with a complete change in relation between God and the sinner; not a judicial change merely, but a conscious and experienced change affecting the sinners whole nature.”
I realize that my conversion has been over a long time. It has not been easy for me. I have always been a Christian, for as long as I can remember, but I have only recently (last 5 years) really gotten to know God.
This makes me wonder, why is it so long and hard in coming? Is it just me, or has everyone had this experience? If we all do, why does it have to be so hard for us? I’m thinking of my own kids. I just don’t see them putting in the real effort like I have done over the course of the past years to know God. Look at Job; he loses EVERYTHING. It takes a very long time for him too. I would think God would want it to come quicker and less painful so He would get more followers. I suppose the question then would be if their love was then authentic or not. Quality over quantity maybe?
Good questions, Laura! With me, it’s just been because of my own timing…as to wanting to to get to know God better or just putting him up on the shelf for awhile. It’s all been in my own court.
Laura, your final paragraph has really got me thinking. I don’t know that the intimacy with God takes everyone a long and hard time, I see some of my brothers and sisters embrace salvation and live in a relationship that is full of faith and a reliance on God. But my relationship has been more like yours. Looking back over my life, the last 50 years or so, it has been my inability to give myself fully to the relationship. Sometimes it has been because I felt loved and then turned back to the world because I took my relationship with God for granted. Other times, I have turned to myself because of my pride. There are probably loads of other reasons as well, but I have also experienced great times of intimacy when I was intentionally seeking my relationship with and reliance on Him.
Tim Keller has a great teaching on the idea that salvation occurs in layers, as we grow closer God continues to go deeper into our hearts and souls. I believe that I have suffered from a lack of trust because of my earthly family and I have transferred that lack of trust into all my relationships. In many ways, I have not allowed God in there because I was afraid of facing the pain. God has shown me that pain will not kill me and in many ways is a great gift.
As for Job, I am not sure that his situation can be compared to mine. We are told of how he pleased God in his ways, and is used by God to show us a foreshadowing of Christ. That Christ would have everything taken and suffer and die, all to obey His Father and save us. I am so grateful when my heart can rest in the belief that God’s timing, really all He does, can be fully relied upon. Then I find rest.
Thanks for sharing!
“My inability to give myself fully to the relationship” So insightful, Mary. That’s just it!
Laura,
I remember one of my Bible study leaders telling us how her faith was “hard fought for”…she said something like she had to fight for every piece of her faith, it didn’t come easily for her…she would listen to sermons and read the Bible, but she had lots of questions and it was hard work for her to make it her own.
THE GOSPEL APPROACH TO SUFFERING
Job is lamenting in chapter 14, and by verse 14, he has a question for the Lord. “If a man dies, will he live again?” The Spirit of God answers him, with the gospel!
OH YES-THE GOSPEL! NEVER SAW THIS:
“You will call and I will answer you;
you will long for the creature your hands have made.
16 Surely then you will count my steps
but not keep track of my sin.
17 My offenses will be sealed up in a bag;
you will cover over my sin.”
I LOVE this- God will “LONG” for the creature His hands have made-and my offenses will be sealed up in a bag and Jesus will cover over my sin-He will count my steps but will not keep track of my sin! YES! This is true of me starting in 1988 when He saved me and made me His! 🙂
10. According to Job 14:15, what will God one day do for each of His children and why?
God will call us and we will be able to answer. All sin will be gone and we will stand face to face with Him-PURE intimacy-delighting in one another-Our HOPE in the resurrection-Our CONFIDENCE!
11. According to Job 14:16-17, what will God do with our sin?
oops-spazzed a bit above-already answered this. 🙂 Wow, I see God intervening and being his comfort telling him he isn’t being punished.
This brought to mind how so like Job’s friends we can be-punishing others for their sins based on their circumstances because we forget the Gospel.
Loved this from Dee:
You are not being punished, Your sins are covered. They have been paid in full.
Your Lord is your Redeemer — and one day He will stand on the earth, making all things right.
Your God has not lost control — He will do all things well in His time.
You may not understand now, but accept the mystery of suffering, for I have died for you, love you, am in control, and will make all things right.
12. Describe God’s words to Job’s friends in Job 42:7-9. What does this tell you?
This is huge about GOD! Job’s friends approached Job with a works-salvation mentality and God hates that. This flies in the face of what we hear in our churches today. God is so unlike what we can so easily portray Him to be-A God who desires rule following more than intimacy-and if you don’t obey Him and do everything right God will punish you and of course if you are a parent and you mess up your kids will not follow him and if they don’t it is your fault-you failed. Notice God says-if you love me you will obey me-not-I will approve of you and love you if you obey me..teaching our kids about Him is an outflow of loving Him-and the results are up to Him. God says, “Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me”. Intimacy with God is the core of His heart’s desire for us-He LONGS for us. The Christian life isn’t about living a moral life!
Also, I think I see the Gospel here-God is desiring restoration with Job’s friends, and Job is a picture of Jesus-He is intercessing praying for His friends who sinned against him and God. God desires to restore the oppressors and older brothers too! Wow..
“The Christian life isn’t about living a moral life”
I think of a psychological study that I once read about. It was focused on OCD patients. One of the studies that was conducted was surrounding those who with severe “germ phobias”, one example described was touching door knobs. The solution to this problem (in early psychological analysis) was to make these patients touch as many door knobs as was humanly possible! The good old behavior modification approach, guess what? It didn’t work! HA! They found out this issue was a bit more complex!
Just as in this example concerning a psychological disorder, I have found that the spiritual transformation journey is the same. We try and try and try to change that behavior by outward means (sometime with equally cruel methodologies) and nothing ever seems to change. Why? Because, the same principle applies, the issues are not external they are bound up inside humanity. I think about this and I can truly say (from personal experience), when Christ gains that access to our heart (the internal person) our “have to” transforms into a “want to” and that is when we can be assured that the real CHANGE and the real HEALING will begin.
Such a good post, Rebecca! Thank you for priming the thought pump!
Love this, Rhonda. “when Christ gains that access to our heart (the internal person) our “have to” transforms into a “want to” and this is when we can be assured that the real CHANGE and the real HEALING will begin.”
Great insight in your last paragraph.
Dee,
That understanding (after years of wearisome toil) has brought great joy to my life! Wouldn’t trade that for anything in the world! 🙂
It’s huge. And it’s the theme of tomorrow’s post! So glad to have you here, Rhonda.
Rebecca–this brought me tears. I feel He wrote this through you for me today–bless you
Rebecca–another thought your post just gave me–and this may be off, so please, someone correct me! But you said “if you are a parent and you mess up your kids will not follow him and if they don’t it is your fault-you failed”, and I was just thinking about the Prodigal son(s!), both rebelled, but it wasn’t because of the Father’s poor parenting. Dee, thoughts? In desperate need of grace today and I am hopeful on this one 😉
13. How does the gospel help Chris face her suffering? How did she reject both the younger and older brother approach? How did the book of Job help her?
The younger brother in her wanted somewhere else to turn—someway to make sense of it. But she was like Peter and knew—she had no where else to go. She could not stray from her Father’s love. The older brother that felt a right to know why, to have an answer, a reason—was it discipline? Again Chris was stilled by the voice of Truth. She looked to Job’s life and how he never knew why the punishment came—and yet, we know God loved Job. And so she chose, instead of wrestling, to rest. Rest in the arms of her Abba Father, like a small, tender, wounded child. She let Him wipe away the tears, as she still does before us today. And because of her continual turning back to Him, over and over, He has used this terrible tragedy to refine her. To bring out her Christ-like beauty. We all see it in her. She may be the most other-centered person I have ever known, continually remembering others. Never making our pain seem too insignificant. Though I know my own is trivial in comparison to what she has suffered, she never minimizes it. She is a woman of true compassion, of depth, of holiness. I am so blessed by her example, to know her. Love you Chris.
Oh Elizabeth, I loved your words for Chris and I agree very strongly!
This brought tears, thank you for blessing me in this way Elizabeth, you are a treasure.
This is too long, but it was hard for me to condense once I wrote up my notes. SO good to hear this one again. Amazing how differently it his me this time.
Keller, Questions on Suffering
When suffering comes, I instinctively ask WHY?
1. AVOID PAT ANSWERS
There are 2 basic (wrong) responses to suffering.
1) Moralism: The religious moralist says—‘why is God punishing me? , what am I doing wrong? Maybe I need to pray more, harder…’ The moralists live by the idea that we are rewarded/punished based on how we act.
2) Cynicism: The secular cynic says life is random. There is either no God, or He is incompetent. It doesn’t matter how you live.
What is the relationship of God and suffering?
Suffering is Satan’s idea. God does not generate suffering, disease, disaster, death. God did not create a world of disease. They are forces of darkness released when we turned away from God. YET, God is in absolute control. He permits, yet limits the evil. God hates suffering, but He permits it only to the degree it defeats Satan’s purpose. *God only allows Satan enough rope to hang himself with his own plans. Can’t type that without thinking of Rebecca 😉
Satan was allowed by God to bring evil into Job’s life in such a way and amount that it completely defeats Satan’s intention.
God hates suffering, but He permits it—only to the degree that it defeats Satan’s purpose and instead refines us.
Job never learns the “why”. God never tells Job the example he is or that it’s all for good—God reminds Job Who He is. The pat answers are our attempt to be in control. The Bible calls us to serve God though I may never know the reason for the suffering—hold on to the mystery, stay in relationship with Him.
2. EMBRACE LIVING WITHOUT AN ANSWER
God says ‘Job loves me’. He serves out of love. I am called to serve God in such a way that I am not trying to get something out of it. In relationship—when we say we love someone—but it’s really about what they can give me, that’s not love. *We learn to love God for Who He is through suffering.
In order to make Job into a man of greatness, Job could not know why. So many times I have said, I could get through this if I just knew why. But I have to be in the position of serving Him for nothing.
I cannot get the answer to my suffering, if God is to make me who He wants to make me—I have to be willing to serve without getting something from Him. That is how He creates true love between us and Him, free lovers—one who love Jesus for Christ alone. Embrace the not-knowing, embrace the mystery.
3. ANTICIPATE THE FINAL ANSWER
Job says ‘naked I came, naked I die’. In Job’s emotional pain, he holds on to the theology of grace. He does not believe the things God has taken were his—he recognizes everything he had were gifts of grace.
If I build my life on things, people, relationships, then when suffering comes and takes away those things, I will find myself without joy. But if I build my life on God, then when suffering comes I will find myself drawn deeper into the Source of my joy.
We have resources Job did not have. Satan says to God, ‘Job doesn’t love You, he’s using You’ —but God doesn’t accept it.
Yet when Satan told Adam and Eve–when Satan tells US ‘God doesn’t love you, He’s using you’, we believe it. The lie of Satan says that we cannot trust God, that if we fully give our lives to Him, He’ll destroy us. Keller says, the reason I can’t handle suffering is that I still believe the lie of Satan, I still don’t believe He really loves me. We want proof that He loves us. The proof? The Cross. The innocent Body, beaten and naked, dying on the cross, the only One truly abandoned by God—FOR ME. He is the only One Who ever served God, loved God, for nothing—and He did it all for ME. He proved Satan is a liar, he is the father of lies. Jesus suffered not that I would not suffer, but that when I do—I can become more like Him.
There is a purpose in suffering. I can know He won’t waste it, and I can know He still loves me; I can trust Him without knowing the why, I can trust He will refine me through it. I do believe that, and I do sense His love in it—but my humanness still just doesn’t like it. And the childish part of me wants the suffering to end. It is still hard to really rest—to not let my mind wander down the path of ‘what if ‘this’ gets worse…’ I don’t know that I could ever embrace suffering. Maybe He isn’t asking me too. But He is asking me to trust. And that means that whether it’s my constant struggle with one child—where I fear I am “messing up” and that one day it will turn worse and will all be my fault…or my own personal struggles, I have to pray, leave it with Him and then not run the path of fear. Trust does not allow fear.
Elizabeth…you summed the sermon up perfectly and I’m going to cut and paste this to save in a e-mail to me…to remind me of Keller’s words. Thanks you so much!!
I see why Joyce listened to this sermon three times! I am on my second time and there is SO much here and so timely as I have had much pain this week. I feel blessed to put the myths regarding suffering behind me for good and trust God to help me love Him even more through my suffering and help me to put the why’s to rest.
I am stunned how I began not liking the book of Job and find that I am coming to love this book!
A few highlights:
2 systems:
Irreligious/secular: God is indifferent to our pain. It’s a crap shoot and God’s out for lunch.
Religious: You must not be behaving good enough if you are suffering. (This was my belief system)
Both systems keep us in control instead of God.
When God made the world He didn’t make disease, disaster, sickness. These came with the fall.
God hates suffering but He’s in control. He permits it because it defeats itself.
Embrace that you don’t need to know why you suffer. Loving/serving God for who He is alone (for Himself) comes through suffering. Become a free-lover.
In Job’s authenticity he sinned not. He understood the theology of grace. His life was not built on things but on God. Suffering drove him deeper into God. Satan accomplished the opposite of what he intended.
Kim, I’m so sorry you have had much pain this week. Is it headaches again? Whatever it is, I’m praying to God to remove it. You are such an insperation to me, with much faith. Will be praying.
Thank you my friend. Yes, the headaches again. They’re so unreasonable! The night one’s are gone but the days have been real bad this week. I’m sure I don’t understand the rhyme or reason.
I’m so sorry, Kim! We all want to fix it — tell you to drink water…but I know what we need to do is pray!
Trying to get the sermon. Do I have to fill out all the billing/shipping address stuff, and get an account on the website to be able to listen to it?
http://sermons2.redeemer.com/sites/sermons2.redeemer.com/files/sermons/Questions_of_Suffering.mp3
Here it is Krista
Joyce — you are cracking me up. You are now our tech advisor! What happened to the old Joyce? I love it!
PRAYER REQUEST: The last 24 hours have been my worst yet as a parent, and revealed some very troubling lies my child has been telling–both to us, but just heard from a parent we don’t know, some very serious things our child has been saying about us at school. These parents even went to the teacher out of concern. We wouldn’t have known except we had to contact these parents tonight about some things we found that our child had taken..obviously a hard story to tell here. As my husband said, it’s a miracle CPS isn’t at our door based on our child’s lies. We don’t know if this is stemming from adoption issues–we are totally at a loss. Much of this has gone on for years (she’s 9) but never to this extent. We are hoping to meet with our pastor possibly tomorrow. Please pray for wisdom. Being told I am mean and hated is the least of what I’ve dealt with today. Thanks
Oh, sweet elizabeth, my heart aches for you. This is so hard. So glad you are going to your pastor.
Oh, Lord, we have just been learning that suffering is the way you make us go deeper into knowing Your love. Protect Elizabeth and her daughter from Satan’s lies. Help Elizabeth to KNOW that you are NOT punishing her but have a very good reason for this and it is to defeat Satan’s true intentions for her and her family. Satan wants to destroy, but You want to heal. Have mercy, Lord.
AMEN
Diane–the moment I read this last night, tears streamed down my face. I shared it with my husband too. IT gave me peace enough to sleep just to know you had read my request and were praying
OH DEAR FRIEND! that is soooooooo hard! I am so very sorry! It is so hard to hear that your child is really struggling and making things up. I praise God that csb is not at your door! and will trust that they will not be. If you need some advice on how to get her the help she needs please message me on FB. I have a wonderful couseler that HAs helped us with issues that I can not even put on this blog for fear it could hurt one of my children. She is amazing and very holy Spirit filled.
I am praying for your sweet mama heart! you poor thing! I can say that it looks SO big it feels like it might eat you alive at the time, but when God gives you time and perspective it does get easier.
I am praying for you! hang in there!!!! you ARE a good MAMA!!!!
I agree with Diane in prayer and with Cyndi in wisdom. YOU ARE BOTH VERY GOOD PARENTS… and don’t believe the evil one’s lies that he is trying to make you believe. God loves you so much and it is not your fault, this is happening. You just wrote the most beautiful notes, that I copied and saved. I’m praying for you to keep trusting God and for healing to come. Praying for your meeting with your pastor also. Hang in there…we love you~
Joyce–I cannot tell you how much your words mean to me–thank you
Cyndi–I actually thought of you several times yesterday wishing I could talk through this with you–I don’t have FB, but I will try your blog and see if I can connect with you there–thank you so much
Cyndi, I am very interested in your counselor. I don’t “do” Facebook much, but could I give you my email to ask a couple of questions?
Elizabeth, this is so hard. I am sorry. Children are the greatest struggle for me in my life. I never know what is right 🙁 we are all different, and everyone acts and reacts in various ways. It is hard to pin point “one way” that works for all. We can’t make a “one size fits all” and expect it to work. Something is obviously bothering your daughter. She needs some help to work it out and cyndi seems to have a reputable person that might be able to dig in to sort things out (thank goodness for skype!). I have used many counselors/psychologists/psychiatrists over the years and don’t hold stock in what is out there myself. Just my experience of course. I would definitely go to someone who is recommended by a friend or who is Christian.
I am praying for your family.
Laura-dancer–thank you SO much. I know you empathize and I am so thankful for your prayers and wisdom.
Crying out for you Elizabeth this morning.
Your daughters struggles are not your fault…I know well the lies the enemy whispers, that if I loved more completely the child would be what I long to see them be.
The truth is you are doing the very best you know how to do, her character and her heart are between her and Christ who loves her and understands every bit of her heart and yours.
This too shall pass.
Remember what you wrote earlier in the week, about there being no rest apart from Christ, lay hold of that rest. Hold tight to the confidence you have in him.
I am saying these same things to my own heart, Brian was arrested yesterday. A continuation of the same behavior he was in trouble for at the beginning of last year.
It is pretty clear that he is manifesting symptoms of mental illness. His mom struggled with mental illness & he is 20 years old, early adulthood is often the time mental illness becomes obvious.
This is new territory for Bill and me, it is hard to know anything to do except pray.
So sorry about Brian, Chris. I will be praying. Remind me who Brian is please.
Thank you Diane, there was a time in our marriage when we nearly divorced. Bill had an affair and Brian was born. He and Daniel were days apart in age. He started visiting for weekends and summers when he was 5. He came to live with us full time when he was in 5th grade.
His mother is passed away last summer.
Thanks for reminding me about who Brian is, Chris, even though I am sure just saying this must bring difficult memories for you. I am so sorry Brian is having struggles now.
Sorry to hear this about Brian, Chris…I know you and Bill have invested so much of yourselves into his life, this must be so hard to watch. Praying for him and for you, too.
Thank you dear Chris–I thought of you often yesterday too. There is a new level of humility in all of this I can’t even explain. What started yesterday as a few lies we thought limited to one area, escalated so fast. Part of us wants to make right the things she has said to people, knowing now it has traveled to friends of ours–and the other part of me is overwhelmed with a pain I never wanted to experience and fear of what is to come. She is so young. I think we are still in shock to see what she is capable of. Thank you for the reminder to cling to His truth, to rest in Him. We feel like we have no idea what to do at each step but pray. I was able to sleep after I read Diane’s prayer and reminded myself that trust does not allow for fear. I cannot trust Him and also run the path of the worst case scenario ahead. My verse for 2013 has been “my soul finds rest in God alone” Psalm 62:1. I had a necklace inscribed with it–think I will wear that today.
So sorry for Brian–so so sorry. Will continue prayers for you and Bill.
One of our ‘bonus’ kids was at one point in time saying things about me that were mean and untrue to others. I had to let go of the concern about what those people she had talked to thought of me. That was hard.
I knew what was true, I was trying to love and serve her, albeit imperfectly, imperfect is all I am capable of.
I tried to think of it as laying down my life for her.
That is what you are doing now, laying down your comfort, control, and approval for this little damaged person.
Oh Elizabeth. I hate this so. Thank you for telling us so we can cover you in prayer.
Father — I don’t know but my eyes are on You. Please give the pastor wisdom, and protect Elizabeth and her husband. Work in this child’s heart, O Lord. If there are some deep psychological problems, give them wisdom on where to get help. And come to them all, O Lord.